Chuck Norris's Judo useless grappling with the Gracies

Ryo said:
Dude.... Youre dreaming. He would wreck the average BB. Whats so different about the average BB Today that would give him problems? Lol good lord. Is F12 turning into the Heavies...
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I've never understood this argument.

Is the average NBA, NFL, MLB, etc better today than 20 years ago? Of course. No one would argue otherwise.

Is the average MMA competitior better than 20 years ago? Of course.

Training methods, access to knowledge, etc- all improve over time. Why wouldn't bjj be any different?

The average competition black belt today is light years better than the average competition blackbelt from 20 years ago. Yes, perhaps the best from then would wreck the 45 year old hobbyists today, but that is not an apples to apples comparison as there wasn't that type of blackbelt 20 years ago (in america at least).
 
Forceof1 said:
I've never understood this argument.

Is the average NBA, NFL, MLB, etc better today than 20 years ago? Of course. No one would argue otherwise.

Is the average MMA competitior better than 20 years ago? Of course.

Training methods, access to knowledge, etc- all improve over time. Why wouldn't bjj be any different?

The average competition black belt today is light years better than the average competition blackbelt from 20 years ago. Yes, perhaps the best from then would wreck the 45 year old hobbyists today, but that is not an apples to apples comparison as there wasn't that type of blackbelt 20 years ago (in america at least).
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It's not true of the "Einsteins" of the previous generation, since they were so ahead of the their time. That's why these speculations are difficult.
 
spacetime said:
It's not true of the "Einsteins" of the previous generation, since they were so ahead of the their time. That's why these speculations are difficult.
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WTF does this mean? We are talking physical abilities- mental is a whole different discussion. I understand why you are trying to change the discussion- but at least keep your trolling somewhat respectable...
 
Forceof1 said:
WTF does this mean? We are talking physical abilities- mental is a whole different discussion. I understand why you are trying to change the discussion- but at least keep your trolling somewhat respectable...
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For fuck sake. I was using Einstein as a METHAPHOR FOR Being brillant and way ahead of the curve at what you do
 
spacetime said:
"It's like I never had a lesson in my life"

Chuck Norris mentor and instructor was none other than Gene Lebell.

Judo players out there, does this sting? :)
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I'm sorry did you say something? I couldn't hear it over the sound of Kimura Masahiko snapping Helio's arm.
 
shunyata said:
I'm sorry did you say something? I couldn't hear it over the sound of Kimura Masahiko snapping Helio's arm.
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So sad for you guys, having to reference the 1950s, and it's still not on equal terms even then.
 
People on this forum are grapplers, not TMA dorks from half a century ago. You don't do Judo, nor BJJ. You may think you are edgy, but in reality you are a relic.
 
Forceof1 said:
I've never understood this argument.

Is the average NBA, NFL, MLB, etc better today than 20 years ago? Of course. No one would argue otherwise.

Is the average MMA competitior better than 20 years ago? Of course.

Training methods, access to knowledge, etc- all improve over time. Why wouldn't bjj be any different?

The average competition black belt today is light years better than the average competition blackbelt from 20 years ago. Yes, perhaps the best from then would wreck the 45 year old hobbyists today, but that is not an apples to apples comparison as there wasn't that type of blackbelt 20 years ago (in america at least).
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The average, yes.. the elite... well roger just walked through the best bjj by far, coming off 5 years retirement...
 
BJJ_Rage said:
The average, yes.. the elite... well roger just walked through the best bjj by far, coming off 5 years retirement...
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You can see Rickson toying here with a three time AAU Judo Champion. I am not a grappler but he looks laser sharp. Wouldn't be surprised if he was still best of the best, if we had this young Rickson in a time machine transported to 2018.

 
spacetime said:
And why is that sir? Aren't you ashamed that Rickson submitts Judo champions at will? They can't even resist on the ground.
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Please don't message me in this unbearably stupid thread. Or ever, if this thread is the quality of your posts.
 
efficientjudo said:
Take the average BJJ blackbelt and put them with Rickson and they would probably say the same thing!
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Many people just don't get the difference between a good recreation athlete and the elite. I've played hockey for a long time, as a kid and in pretty good adult leagues. So how do you think I'd look against say Crosby or Ovechkin on the ice? How do you think your average guy with 10+ years of basketball is going to look against Lebron James on the court?

Your average BJJ black belt (with 12 years of three-four times a week BJJ) is going to look as silly against Rickson as your average person with 12 years of three-four times a week hoops (and a lot of rec guys play a lot more than that) is going to look against Lebron.

People in most sports know this - no recreational basketball player, no matter how many years they've played, thinks they're at the level of Lebron. In BJJ and judo people think that just because they have the same belt color as say Rickson or Teddy Riner they're going to give them a good match in BJJ or judo.
 
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Cappy Goodtime said:
That's some crazy Paul Bunyan tales hero worship. Jiu jitsu works and jiu jitsu evolves. Rickson was way more of an athlete in his prime than the average black belt, but I doubt his "invisible jiu jitsu" was so good that everyone would feel like they have no idea what they're doing.

When I roll with people better than myself they make better choices quicker, that doesn't mean that when I do the correct thing it doesn't work.
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Ever play hockey or basketball or baseball against a top level pro? Even if you'd put as much time into it as your average BJJ black belt has put into BJJ (and a lot of recreational hockey/basketball/baseball players have put way more time into their sport than your average recreational BJJ black belt has put into BJJ ), you're going to look silly against Crosby or Lebron or trying to hit Randy Johnson's pitching.
 
spacetime said:
Nice rationalizations to believe in weight classes?
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Kimura weighed 175 pounds, Helio at 135 (both according to many sources), so Kimura was clearly two weight divisions (by modern judo standards) heavier. On other hand, if Kimura was a BJJ white belt level grappler (your assessment) then 40 pounds shouldn't make any difference at all - the weight only comes into play if they're at roughly the same skill level.

Royce and Yoshida for example (Yoshida competed in judo at 173 pounds - the weight at which he won Olympic gold), Royce about the same in BJJ). I think the first match was a bad call (the ref shouldn't be tapping for a competitor at that level), but it was pretty clear that the two were pretty even. And Yoshida was known for have very poor ne-waza (judo groundwork) by Olympic judo standards - he won on throws and even in judo competition tried to keep off the ground).

Rickson was better on the ground than any judo guy in history. But using Chuck Norris as a measure of that is just silly.
 
AnotherOldGuy said:
Kimura weighed 175 pounds, Helio at 135 (both according to many sources), so Kimura was clearly two weight divisions (by modern judo standards) heavier. On other hand, if Kimura was a BJJ white belt level grappler (your assessment) then 40 pounds shouldn't make any difference at all - the weight only comes into play if they're at roughly the same skill level.

Royce and Yoshida for example (Yoshida competed in judo at 173 pounds - the weight at which he won Olympic gold), Royce about the same in BJJ). I think the first match was a bad call (the ref shouldn't be tapping for a competitor at that level), but it was pretty clear that the two were pretty even. And Yoshida was known for have very poor ne-waza (judo groundwork) by Olympic judo standards - he won on throws and even in judo competition tried to keep off the ground).

Rickson was better on the ground than any judo guy in history. But using Chuck Norris as a measure of that is just silly.
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Judokas newaza is not white belt but it sure sucks compared to bjj. Kimura did not finish Helio in the time he declared and lost the challenge in actuality
 
spacetime said:
Judokas newaza is not white belt but it sure sucks compared to bjj. Kimura did not finish Helio in the time he declared and lost the challenge in actuality
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There is no record of Kimura making that declaration. Just another Helio myth. Stop sipping that kool-aid.
 
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