Choque - The official thread

It seems like a lot of the modern standardization of BJJ came from Rolls and Carlos Jr. I'd love to see more info on it.

Carlos Jr. is clearly leading the charge lately to codify and spread BJJ in a similar way that Kano did with BJJ's ancestor. A lot of schools are following Gracie Barra and IBJJF's lead at this point.
I published this elsewhere. You may find it useful...

Primer on the Organizational History of Jiu-Jitsu in Brazil (pt 1)

In the 1920’s and 1930’s there were several active professional Jiu-Jitsu fighters teaching in Brazil; among these were Geo Omori, Takeo Yano, and of course Maeda and the Gracies. Professional Jiu-Jitsu, like all fighting sports belonged to a single Confedera
 
Last edited:
Found this in there:

"Helio Gracie's career record was twelve matches of various types, winning six, losing one, and drawing five (6-1-5) Two of the matches permitted striking. Neither of the two strikers (Portugal and Dudu) was remotely the caliber of Joe Louis."

So only two striking there. I guess he won both of those.

So up to 1949, his record was:

Sub Grappling: 4-1-5
NHB: 2-0

What was his comeback record in sub and nhb?

Well, the only vale tudo I know for certain is the Santana bout, where he was knocked out.

The jiu-jitsu matches: he drew with Kato, then choked him in a rematch. The Kimura match, of course.

If you look around various sites, you'll find Landufo Carib
 
So based on this new information, if someone asked you about the history of BJJ, what would you tell them?

Would it be something like:

Around 1900, a few Japanese immigrants brought Kodokan Judo (then called Kano Jujutsu) to Brazil. The five Gracie brothers (Carlos, Helio, George, Oswaldo, Gastao) studied with Brazilian students of the Japanese Judoka and some of them began doing submission grappling matches with practitioners of other styles found in Brazil such as Capoeira, Luta Romano, Catch as Catch Can/Luta Livre and Western Boxing.

Over time, the Gracies used their Judo training and added techniques from other styles to formulate their own version of Judo that they called Gracie Jiu Jitsu which consisted of basic throws and takedowns in order to get the opponent to the ground where they could establish safe positional control and work towards submissions if possible.

The next generation of Gracie's (Rolls, Rickson, Carlos Jr.) traveled to train and compete with American wrestlers, Sambo practitioners and Judoka which led to further refinement of the Gracie Jiu Jitsu style making into what we know it as today.

I never got a chance to answer this, but I think you're on the right track.

Jiu-jitsu and judo were terms used (somewhat) interchangeably at times. Regarding who innovated what, it can be a tough thing to quantify. It seems judo is at the heart of Brazilian jiu-jitsu. It's just not necessarily the straight line (Maeda --> Carlos Gracie ---> etc.) that some have claimed.

Jiu-jitsu was part of a larger "fighting" scene in Brazil of the day. Pedreira notes that "jiu-jitsu did not exist apart from other martial arts, and many people cross-trained or moved from one art to another, or created their own styles out of elements with others."

It seems some from the early period simply learned from books like Hancock's "Complete Kano Jiu-Jitsu" (which Jigoro Kano himself described as having nothing to do with his judo).

In fact, it's still a little unclear on how Carlos Gracie began his training, but he definitely eventually trained with Donato Pires, who was a Maeda student. Carlos and his brothers eventually began their own academy.

Carlos, George, Helio, and Oswaldo Gracie all competed in matches, of various styles: some vale tudo, some grappling-only, some with gi, some without. Gestao Jr was an instructor, but there's no record of him fighting.

Helio became the most prominent instructor of the brothers, and was an important fighter in the early days -- using a defensive style. George was more active as a fighter, and is noted for a more aggressive style than his brother. Both used groundwork more than standup. George also admitted to working some bouts. Comparing the merits of the two is a little difficult.

Among the next generation, Carlson Gracie (Sr) was an important fighter and trainer. Rolls Gracie, who traveled to compete in SAMBO and wrestling (along with Rickson Gracie and other jiu-jitsu artists), is another important trainer who is credited with adding more innovation to the style.

There were always people outside the Gracie family fighting under the banner of jiu-jitsu in Brazil.

In the mid 90's, Royce Gracie's UFC success sparked worldwide interest in Brazilian jiu-jitsu. Later, Rickson Gracie became a star in Japan. The Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu World Championships and Abu Dhabi submission wrestling championships were established, and grappling competition took on a life of its own.

There's a whole lot more to talk about, but there's a quick attempt at a rundown.
 
Last edited:
great thread. sorry to confuse it by adding another tommy.


love seeing a blavatsky reference in a martial arts thread. but does anyone know why i can't find anything on the peruvian spirit "Egidio Lasjovino" anywhere online??
 
great thread. sorry to confuse it by adding another tommy.


love seeing a blavatsky reference in a martial arts thread. but does anyone know why i can't find anything on the peruvian spirit "Egidio Lasjovino" anywhere online??

Maybe Carlos just invented it?
 
I never got a chance to answer this, but I think you're on the right track.

Jiu-jitsu and judo were terms used (somewhat) interchangeably at times. Regarding who innovated what, it can be a tough thing to quantify. It seems judo is at the heart of Brazilian jiu-jitsu. It's just not necessarily the straight line (Maeda --> Carlos Gracie ---> etc.) that some have claimed.

Jiu-jitsu was part of a larger "fighting" scene in Brazil of the day. Pedreira notes that "jiu-jitsu did not exist apart from other martial arts, and many people cross-trained or moved from one art to another, or created their own styles out of elements with others."

It seems some from the early period simply learned from books like Hancock's "Complete Kano Jiu-Jitsu" (which Jigoro Kano himself described as having nothing to do with his judo).

In fact, it's still a little unclear on how Carlos Gracie began his training, but he definitely eventually trained with Donato Pires, who was a Maeda student. Carlos and his brothers eventually began their own academy.

Carlos, George, Helio, and Oswaldo Gracie all competed in matches, of various styles: some vale tudo, some grappling-only, some with gi, some without. Gestao Jr was an instructor, but there's no record of him fighting.

Helio became the most prominent instructor of the brothers, and was an important fighter in the early days -- using a defensive style. George was more active as a fighter, and is noted for a more aggressive style than his brother. Both used groundwork more than standup. George also admitted to working some bouts. Comparing the merits of the two is a little difficult.

Among the next generation, Carlson Gracie (Sr) was an important fighter and trainer. Rolls Gracie, who traveled to compete in SAMBO and wrestling (along with Rickson Gracie and other jiu-jitsu artists), is another important trainer who is credited with adding more innovation to the style.

There were always people outside the Gracie family fighting under the banner of jiu-jitsu in Brazil.

In the mid 90's, Royce Gracie's UFC success sparked worldwide interest in Brazilian jiu-jitsu. Later, Rickson Gracie became a star in Japan. The Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu World Championships and Abu Dhabi submission wrestling championships were established, and grappling competition took on a life of its own.

There's a whole lot more to talk about, but there's a quick attempt at a rundown.

I'd like to add the following to that: In the late 19th century Mataemon Tanabe and Yataro Handa refined Tanabe's personal ne waza system for the purpose of defeating the Kodokan. This system produced an early wave of ex-pat challenge-wrestlers who immigrated to the UK, influenced British CACC, and fed into the Budokwai and Bartitsu. Kano absorbed the system into Kodokan Judo, buttressing his system's relatively primitive mat work, but eventually spun it off into the (KOSEN) university system. Maeda was part of a community of a dozen or so Japanese challenger wrestlers, some Kodokan some not - all Tanabe trained- who often trained, traveled and fought together under CACC "Jiu-Jitsu" rules as well as rough-and-tumble/vale tudo rules. Gracie Jiu-Jitsu is neither a form of Judo, nor a form of Jiu-Jitsu; it is a body of techniques from numerous styles favored by Japanese challenge wrestlers, and used in the ring to win rough-and-tumble and "jiu-jitsu wrestling" contests, with its core being the ne waza style of a single dojo (and not any koryu art, Fusen or otherwise)

Carlos had a few years exposure to this style but athleticised it in a way that made it difficult to teach to others; Helio removed the athletic element, essentially rediscovering the source style Carlos had been taught, and believed (perhaps honestly) that he had invented that source style, despite it being essentially identical to other lineages (like Fadda). The application of this style to street fighting is most likely the primary contribution of the Gracie family.

Of course none of this has much bearing on "BJJ" which is a sport invented by people like Rolls Gracie and Jo
 
Last edited:
I'd like to add the following to that: In the late 19th century Mataemon Tanabe and Yataro Handa refined Tanabe's personal ne waza system for the purpose of defeating the Kodokan. This system produced an early wave of ex-pat challenge-wrestlers who immigrated to the UK, influenced British CACC, and fed into the Budokwai and Bartitsu. Kano absorbed the system into Kodokan Judo, but eventually spun it off into the (KOSEN) university system. Maeda was part of a community of a dozen or so Japanese challenger wrestlers, some Kodokan some not - all Tanabe trained- who often trained, traveled and fought together under CACC "Jiu-Jitsu" rules as well as rough-and-tumble/vale tudo rules. Gracie Jiu-Jitsu is neither a form of Judo, nor a form of Jiu-Jitsu; it is a body of techniques from numerous styles favored by Japanese challenge wrestlers, and used in the ring to win rough-and-tumble and "jiu-jitsu wrestling" contests, with its core being the ne waza style of a single dojo (and not any koryu art, Fusen or otherwise)

Carlos had a few years exposure to this style but athleticised it in a way that made it difficult to teach to others; Helio removed the athletic element, essentially rediscovering the source style Carlos had been taught, and believed (perhaps honestly) that he had invented that source style, despite it being essentially identical to other lineages (like Fadda). The application of this style to street fighting is most likely the primary contribution of the Gracie family.

Of course none of this has much bearing on "BJJ" which is a sport invented by people like Rolls Gracie and Jo
 
I'd love to hear more about this. Sources?

That blurb I wrote is a synthesis of dozens of different sources and conversations with Gracies, the Kodokan archives, Loddo, etc. A good place to begin is the Dainippon Judo-Shi, by Isogai, Nagaoka, Mifune, and Iiduka (with contributions from others including Tanabe), Kodokan 1939.

Also this article from 1915 (story upper left). Let me know if it won't download for you. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...a4Y4tlZ-anFvBptdg&sig2=_jy1681qYt9RQ8fm4yirYg

The quote of Miyake's from that piece which I used in my article is
The other school of jiu-jitsu is called Handa, and its great teachers are at Osaka, where I learned. Handa is more particularly the kind of jiu-jitsu used when two men are on the mat, as in catch-as-catch-can…(a)s I have said, there is little stand-up work in catch-as-catch can and Handa experts are the ones to offer a comparison between the Japanese and American methods… (o)f course, every Kodokan expert knows more or less about Handa, and every Handa man knows a lot about Kodokan, but nevertheless they are each highly specialized.
 
Last edited:
The simplest explanation for count koma calling his style jiu jitsu and not judo is that the Brazilians had already been exposed to jiu jitsu a number of years before count koma so he just what he did was jiu jitsu rather than confusing people with the fact that it was judo he was training and not jiu jitsu as such.

I wonder in what time period did judo start being called judo rather than a style of jiu jitsu.
 
The simplest explanation for count koma calling his style jiu jitsu and not judo is that the Brazilians had already been exposed to jiu jitsu a number of years before count koma so he just what he did was jiu jitsu rather than confusing people with the fact that it was judo he was training and not jiu jitsu as such.

I wonder in what time period did judo start being called judo rather than a style of jiu jitsu.
Kano called it "Kodokan Jiudo" from day 1. Others called it Kano or Kudokan Jujutsu from day 1 as well. There is no such thing as just plain "Jiu-jitsu" or "Ju-Jitsu" outside of western self - defense books and a CACC rule set for jacket wrestling. All Jujutsu styles are either koryu arts with a proper name (like Kato ryu), or famous styles like Handa or Kodokan, named for a specific dojo. Those styles are not actual formal Jujutsu styles, although those two were the main sources of training for Japanese fighting in "Jiu-jitsu rules" wrestling matches in the rings of the West in the prewar period.
 
Last edited:
Excellent stuff Marco. Definitely puts some of the Gracie and Brazilian ideas of jiu jitsu into perspective.
 
That blurb I wrote is a synthesis of dozens of different sources and conversations with Gracies, the Kodokan archives, Loddo, etc. A good place to begin is the Dainippon Judo-Shi, by Isogai, Nagaoka, Mifune, and Iiduka (with contributions from others including Tanabe), Kodokan 1939.

Also this article from 1915 (story upper left). Let me know if it won't download for you. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...a4Y4tlZ-anFvBptdg&sig2=_jy1681qYt9RQ8fm4yirYg

The quote of Miyake's from that piece which I used in my article is

Thank you, will do.

So, basically, not only is Brazilian jiu jitsu not particularly Brazilian, and not particularly a product of the Gracies, it's also not particularly a product of Kodokan judo.
 
You're welcome. I am very happy people are becoming interested in this stuff.

"Jiu-Jitsu" was the name of a rule set describing submission grappling in a ring. When the Gracies described Maeda as "Jiu-jitsu champion of the world" it is to this format that they were referring; there was no world champion of "Jujutsu" as the Japanese understood the word, only champions of individual dojos. For example, in Estad
 
I'd like to add the following to that: In the late 19th century Mataemon Tanabe and Yataro Handa refined Tanabe's personal ne waza system for the purpose of defeating the Kodokan. This system produced an early wave of ex-pat challenge-wrestlers who immigrated to the UK, influenced British CACC, and fed into the Budokwai and Bartitsu. Kano absorbed the system into Kodokan Judo, buttressing his system's relatively primitive mat work, but eventually spun it off into the (KOSEN) university system. Maeda was part of a community of a dozen or so Japanese challenger wrestlers, some Kodokan some not - all Tanabe trained- who often trained, traveled and fought together under CACC "Jiu-Jitsu" rules as well as rough-and-tumble/vale tudo rules. Gracie Jiu-Jitsu is neither a form of Judo, nor a form of Jiu-Jitsu; it is a body of techniques from numerous styles favored by Japanese challenge wrestlers, and used in the ring to win rough-and-tumble and "jiu-jitsu wrestling" contests, with its core being the ne waza style of a single dojo (and not any koryu art, Fusen or otherwise)

Carlos had a few years exposure to this style but athleticised it in a way that made it difficult to teach to others; Helio removed the athletic element, essentially rediscovering the source style Carlos had been taught, and believed (perhaps honestly) that he had invented that source style, despite it being essentially identical to other lineages (like Fadda). The application of this style to street fighting is most likely the primary contribution of the Gracie family.

Of course none of this has much bearing on "BJJ" which is a sport invented by people like Rolls Gracie and Jo
 
These weren't high dollar professional sporting events. They were literally circus acts.

"In this tent we have the bearded lady, in this tent we have Helio Gracie grappling someone, 25 cent entry fee per tent, or $1 for access to all tents plus the donkey show later tonight."

I'm making that up but it's not far from what these were.

this.....^^^^
 
Great info!!!

I mentioned earlier in the thread that all of the ne-waza stuff (the Fusen Ryu and Kosen Judo lore) seems to have a common root in Handa Dojo in Osaka, with Mataemon Tanabe being the protagonist. Hopefully more information about this comes out because there isn't much out there.
There is enough to establish that:
(1) Mataemon Tanebe developed a personal ne waza system in his youth independent of his teachers and of Fusen Ryu (which he came to study and head *after* he developed his ne waza).

(2) That he taught this system at the dojo of Yataro Handa in Osaka.

(3) That he and his students defeated the Kodokan numerous times with their ground grappling techniques and strategy.

(4) That Jigoro Kano absorbed both Tanebe and his system into the Kodokan syllabus during Maeda's time there.

(5) That Kano became dissatisfied with the ne waza heavy direction his art began to take thereafter, and created the KOSEN university system to preserve that aspect, while restricting its use in Judo proper.

(6) That every notable Japanese challenge wrestler competing under Professional Jiu-Jitsu rules in the West, from Taro Miyake to Yukio Tani to Suzuki and Maeda was trained in the Osaka (Handa dojo) style of grappling.

That's more than enough to understand what Gracie Jiu-Jitsu is and is not (ie: "Ring Jiu-Jitsu", and not koryu JuJutsu or Kano's original Judo, or even KOSEN). After that all that remains is to fully grasp that "BJJ" is not Gracie Jiu-Jitsu, but Sport Gracie Jiu-Jitsu, and it becomes clear why KOSEN Judo, Sport Gracie Jiu-Jitsu and Fadda Jiu-Jitsu are as so similar: they are striking-free grappling formats that have a recent common ancestor in Handa dojo ne waza.

Once you grasp the significance of these points taken together, it's clear that the information that exists is sufficient to form the basis of a new (and correct) understanding of the relevant history.
 
Last edited:
There is enough to establish that:
(1) Mataemon Tanebe developed a personal ne waza system in his youth independent of his teachers and of Fusen Ryu (which he came to study and head *after* he developed his ne waza).

(2) That he taught this system at the dojo of Yataro Handa in Osaka.

(3) That he and his students defeated the Kodokan numerous times with their ground grappling techniques and strategy.

(4) That Jigoro Kano absorbed both Tanebe and his system into the Kodokan syllabus during Maeda's time there.

(5) That Kano became dissatisfied with the ne waza heavy direction his art began to take thereafter, and created the KOSEN university system to preserve that aspect, while restricting its use in Judo proper.

(6) That every notable Japanese challenge wrestler competing under Professional Jiu-Jitsu rules in the West, from Taro Miyake to Yukio Tani to Suzuki and Maeda was trained in the Osaka (Handa dojo) style of grappling.

That's more than enough to understand what Gracie Jiu-Jitsu is and is not (ie: "Ring Jiu-Jitsu", and not koryu JuJutsu or Kano's original Judo, or even KOSEN). After that all that remains is to fully grasp that "BJJ" is not Gracie Jiu-Jitsu, but Sport Gracie Jiu-Jitsu, and it becomes clear why KOSEN Judo, Sport Gracie Jiu-Jitsu and Fadda Jiu-Jitsu are as so similar: they are striking-free grappling formats that have a recent common ancestor in Handa dojo ne waza.

Once you grasp the significance of these points taken together, it's clear that the information that exists is sufficient to form the basis of a new (and correct) understanding of the relevant history.

Damn. Fascinating. Thank you for taking the time to share all this.
 
It is also worth noting that the Japanese fighters participating "Ring Jiu-Jitsu", "Rough and Tumble", and other types of challenge matches had a great deal of contact with one another, training together, exchanging technique, and traveling and competing against one another. For example, Shinichi Oimatsu (9th dan) former Professor of Tokyo Education University and Kodokan general manager writes:

“Just before the Japanese-Russian war of 1904-5 (Yukio Tani) travelled to America and then to Europe where in the company of Mitsuyo Maeda, Shinshiro Satake, Akitaro Ono and Taro Miyake he toured Europe taking on boxers and wrestlers for money where they were mostly successful."

This was a group of Kodokan and Handa dojo fighters, all trained in the same grappling system by the same man, traveling together and taking on all comers in both striking and grappling-only formats. If you ever wondered where the unusual tactics and striking techniques of fighters like Royce and Rickson Gracie originate from, it is likely to be from the tactics developed and shared among this group. They have no recognizable antecedent in Jiu-Jitsu (or Kodokan) atemi-waza.

Note also that the notable (and rising) tradition of American newaza centric Judoka including Jimmy Pedro Jr, AnnMaria De Mars, and her daughter Ronda Rousey, all have lineage to the Budokwai through Neil Adams, who taught them their unique approach to securing juji gatame. The Budokwai, of course, being founded by Tanebe's students, who revered and recognized him as Grand Master.

In fact, it appears that the very idea of grappling for submission, absolutely central to later CACC wrestling, did not exist at all in the style before the first Handa dojo men began tapping them out in challenges matches on the stages of London. It is impossible to know for sure where the later arsenal of submissions CACC is famous for today originated, but it is very likely that they were inspired and informed by the Handa dojo method used to publicly defeat them time and time again in their home country.

On 4chan, I guess this is called "dumping" :)

Damn. Fascinating. Thank you for taking the time to share all this.
Thank YOU for being interested in this.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top