Chael Sonnen explains how EPO is taken orally and used in skin cream....

[Son of Sonnen]

I don’t doubt Chael, but hard to imagine a selfish crybaby like TJ who has yet to acknowledge a single loss wouldn’t be throwing everyone around him under the bus if he could. He knows he did it, and I think the people around him knew too and could start tellling the truth about him if he starts to lie about them.

 

[Mike K.O]

Chael admitted that he used PEDs, unlike fighters who try to deny it
GOAT

 

[TestosterOWN]

Him and Chad must have been creaming each other.

 

[vgff]

AH - Could it be that someone is found with EPO in their system unknowlingly?

Chael - Most definitely, there are other ways to get it aside from injectable. Im giving you a very broad stroke and im covering about 99.9%. There is other ways to get it into your system. You dont only have two choices of oral or injectible. There are other ways.

There is some coaches in history, I can think of an athlete specifically, last name of Vargas who coach was applying substances to him and using a topical emso which will take it through the skin into the body, into the veins, and spread out into the organs from there.. There is a third way and its very possible that athletes could have that done to them.

As shady and unbelievable as that story is, theres other people in the gym saying, yes, they would give us this while they start working on a massage, there was an oil type substance, Ive got banned substances in my system that Ive never even heard of.

None of those is an excuse that TJ has offered, to make clear to the listener here, but to answer your question specifically, a coach, and is has happened before to amatuer athletes, i can think of a wrestler specifically, out of Turkey where they did an investigation and it was proven the coach was rubbing this on his athletes without their knowledge.




its the first segment on the show...

I should note that Ariel preceded this by stating that "nobody knows more about this subject than this man"

embarassing to listen to. i tweeted to him afterwards they should consider bringing in an actual medical professional to enlighten the audience in cases like this

 

[Alpha_T83]

It's scientifically impossible to take EPO or any other protein orally -- at least if by "taken" you mean delivered functionally to the bloodstream, where it increases hematocrit.

I know a hell of a lot more than Chael on that matter. Your digestive tract breaks down proteins via proteases (i.e. pepsin and trypsin). That's how you digest the protein in your foods. So almost any proteins that you eat will be digested, and will not survive to functionally enter your bloodstream.

In addition, not all molcules can be effectively taken orally. They need to be lipophillic enough to diffuse through cell membranes, or be readily moved across the membrane by transport/channel proteins. Proteins naturally fold to form lipophillic cores but not surfaces, and therefore cannot freely diffuse through cell membranes.

So for anyone to suggest that EPO can be taken orally is idiocy.

 

[vgff]

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3372031/
Really? An oral doesn't exist?
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/30611793
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28546424
No Topical?

your first link is a clinical trial in treatment of anemia in prematures..which isn't even comparable to doping in adult athletes.
your second link is about treating inflammation in the gums, don't know how you thought that could be related to EPO doping
your third link is a clinical trial about topical treatment of burn wounds in animals...have no idea what you thought when posting this one <45>
there's no commercially available variant of perorally administered EPO, because there's not evidence that it really works for increasing hematocrit and hemoglobin, which is the whole point in treating anemia in leukemia, chronic kidney disease, AND the whole point in blood doping

 

[rjmbrd]

Chael admitted that he used PEDs, unlike fighters who try to deny it
GOAT

He absolutely did not.

He went before CSAC and claimed that not only did he apply for a TUE, he was given an exemption from Nevada. Specifically, made up a crazy lie, because this was not true. He also had a internal medicine doctor (not an endocrinologist) as a witness state that Chael needed testosterone because he never went through puberty. It was absurd.

When he went before NSAC, he capitulated and admitted to lying and blamed it on Matt Lindland and confusion. Of course, again, absurd lies and he went before Nevada hat in hand.

Fast forward to his next suspension, Chael gets busted for estrogen blockers. Instead of admitting doping, he goes on the offensive in the media, claiming he was simply taking this medication as prescribed to him in his attempt to father a child with his wife. He really doubles down on this.

Of course, they randomly surprise tested him again shortly after, and he tests positive for HGH, EPO and hCG. Sonnen then is fired from both the UFC and Fox, for being a habitual, pathological liar and cheater.

Sonnen is entertaining, and he is most definitely clever and a fun broadcaster - this weird notion that he 'came clean' is like living in upside down world. This guy lied and lied and lied through his teeth until he was literally kicked out.

 

[aichokyu]

AH - Could it be that someone is found with EPO in their system unknowlingly?

Chael - Most definitely, there are other ways to get it aside from injectable. Im giving you a very broad stroke and im covering about 99.9%. There is other ways to get it into your system. You dont only have two choices of oral or injectible. There are other ways.

There is some coaches in history, I can think of an athlete specifically, last name of Vargas who coach was applying substances to him and using a topical emso which will take it through the skin into the body, into the veins, and spread out into the organs from there.. There is a third way and its very possible that athletes could have that done to them.

As shady and unbelievable as that story is, theres other people in the gym saying, yes, they would give us this while they start working on a massage, there was an oil type substance, Ive got banned substances in my system that Ive never even heard of.

None of those is an excuse that TJ has offered, to make clear to the listener here, but to answer your question specifically, a coach, and is has happened before to amatuer athletes, i can think of a wrestler specifically, out of Turkey where they did an investigation and it was proven the coach was rubbing this on his athletes without their knowledge.




its the first segment on the show...

I should note that Ariel preceded this by stating that "nobody knows more about this subject than this man"

meh sonnen has no credibility whatsoever, he lied so many times and only says what he thinks makes him look good (knowledgable in that case), a bit like dana

 

[NoSmilez]

your first link is a clinical trial in treatment of anemia in prematures..which isn't even comparable to doping in adult athletes.
your second link is about treating inflammation in the gums, don't know how you thought that could be related to EPO doping
your third link is a clinical trial about topical treatment of burn wounds in animals...have no idea what you thought when posting this one <45>
there's no commercially available variant of perorally administered EPO, because there's not evidence that it really works for increasing hematocrit and hemoglobin, which is the whole point in treating anemia in leukemia, chronic kidney disease, AND the whole point in blood doping

I think I went through this already. I was just answering the fellow regarding no route available. There are interest regarding topicals used to treat anemia for the future as early as 2012. The route is there but they only tested it on rats and it showed promise for alternative towards IV/SQ route. What is GSK 1278863 then? What is roxadustat? if orals don't exist for treating anemia? It's a phase 3 drug not out on market but so are the most of the SARMs that fighters have been testing positive for.
I posted those links to show him an oral or topical formulation is possible. Now I wasted some of my time and pulled up some oral epo proposed to treat anemia.

 

[NoSmilez]

It's scientifically impossible to take EPO or any other protein orally -- at least if by "taken" you mean delivered functionally to the bloodstream, where it increases hematocrit.

I know a hell of a lot more than Chael on that matter. Your digestive tract breaks down proteins via proteases (i.e. pepsin and trypsin). That's how you digest the protein in your foods. So almost any proteins that you eat will be digested, and will not survive to functionally enter your bloodstream.

In addition, not all molcules can be effectively taken orally. They need to be lipophillic enough to diffuse through cell membranes, or be readily moved across the membrane by transport/channel proteins. Proteins naturally fold to form lipophillic cores but not surfaces, and therefore cannot freely diffuse through cell membranes.

So for anyone to suggest that EPO can be taken orally is idiocy.

There is an oral route for EPO..... I am not saying it is in the guidelines to treating CKD. But the formulation exists. look up GSK 1278863

 

[usernamee]

If you are going to cheat, make sure that :

• The substance can be found in off the shelf supplements
• The substance can be found in skin-cream

 

[Mike K.O]

He absolutely did not.

He went before CSAC and claimed that not only did he apply for a TUE, he was given an exemption from Nevada. Specifically, made up a crazy lie, because this was not true. He also had a internal medicine doctor (not an endocrinologist) as a witness state that Chael needed testosterone because he never went through puberty. It was absurd.

When he went before NSAC, he capitulated and admitted to lying and blamed it on Matt Lindland and confusion. Of course, again, absurd lies and he went before Nevada hat in hand.

Fast forward to his next suspension, Chael gets busted for estrogen blockers. Instead of admitting doping, he goes on the offensive in the media, claiming he was simply taking this medication as prescribed to him in his attempt to father a child with his wife. He really doubles down on this.

Of course, they randomly surprise tested him again shortly after, and he tests positive for HGH, EPO and hCG. Sonnen then is fired from both the UFC and Fox, for being a habitual, pathological liar and cheater.

Sonnen is entertaining, and he is most definitely clever and a fun broadcaster - this weird notion that he 'came clean' is like living in upside down world. This guy lied and lied and lied through his teeth until he was literally kicked out.

Well, before the Rampage fight he did

 

[Me&MrJones]

AH - Could it be that someone is found with EPO in their system unknowlingly?

Chael - Most definitely, there are other ways to get it aside from injectable. Im giving you a very broad stroke and im covering about 99.9%. There is other ways to get it into your system. You dont only have two choices of oral or injectible. There are other ways.

There is some coaches in history, I can think of an athlete specifically, last name of Vargas who coach was applying substances to him and using a topical emso which will take it through the skin into the body, into the veins, and spread out into the organs from there.. There is a third way and its very possible that athletes could have that done to them.

As shady and unbelievable as that story is, theres other people in the gym saying, yes, they would give us this while they start working on a massage, there was an oil type substance, Ive got banned substances in my system that Ive never even heard of.

None of those is an excuse that TJ has offered, to make clear to the listener here, but to answer your question specifically, a coach, and is has happened before to amatuer athletes, i can think of a wrestler specifically, out of Turkey where they did an investigation and it was proven the coach was rubbing this on his athletes without their knowledge.




its the first segment on the show...

I should note that Ariel preceded this by stating that "nobody knows more about this subject than this man"

Video:

 

[dim_]

your first link is a clinical trial in treatment of anemia in prematures..which isn't even comparable to doping in adult athletes.
your second link is about treating inflammation in the gums, don't know how you thought that could be related to EPO doping
your third link is a clinical trial about topical treatment of burn wounds in animals...have no idea what you thought when posting this one <45>
there's no commercially available variant of perorally administered EPO, because there's not evidence that it really works for increasing hematocrit and hemoglobin, which is the whole point in treating anemia in leukemia, chronic kidney disease, AND the whole point in blood doping

 

[dim_]

There is an oral route for EPO..... I am not saying it is in the guidelines to treating CKD. But the formulation exists. look up GSK 1278863

Daprodustat is NOT epo. It is a drug that stimulates production of endogenous epo

Its like Roxadustat (FG 4592) which also is NOT epo but stimulates production of endogenous epo

NEITHER of these are exogenous/human recombinant EPO they are both drugs that stimulate the bodies own epo production.

Theres also Zyan1 and a few others that are all very similar. But NONE of them are EPO.

 

[dim_]

Video:

 

[dim_]

"Results suggest transdermal microneedle patch delivery of EPO is feasible and may offer an efficient, dose-adjustable, patient-friendly alternative to current intravenous or subcutaneous routes of administration"
This isn't for wound healing.... You are dealing with people trying to cheat the test. You think the cream was something traditional? These are folks trying to game the system. They are going to take risks and explore all available options.

did you actually read what you quoted

MICRONEEDLE

its not topical application like a cream (And chael was specifically citing epo in massage creams), its just a bunch of small needles as opposed to one big one.

" These are folks trying to game the system. They are going to take risks and explore all available options.

The shortest possible detection window for epo is directly into the vein. If you inject it into the flesh (which is what microneedles would be doing), the detection window will be longer.. why would you inject it into the flesh and increase the chances of detection? That would be stupid.

So no, the only person who would explore that as a viable option would be a moron

give it up, you thought you were being clever, googled a bunch of unrelated exploratory studies and now you are trying to argue yourself out of a hole.

there is no evidence of athletes taking epo either orally, or rubbing it into massage cream, nor is there ever likely to be because it would be stupid.

 

[NoSmilez]

Daprodustat is NOT epo. It is a drug that stimulates production of endogenous epo

Its like Roxadustat (FG 4592) which also is NOT epo but stimulates production of endogenous epo

NEITHER of these are exogenous/Human recombinant EPO they are both drugs that stimulate the bodies own epo production.

Come on. Why are you still trying to die on this hill? Are you saying these drugs have no potential use for abuse?
It's like arguing designer drugs vs Steroids. For example, a lot of sarms are not steroids but they do the same thing.
Those drugs are biologics that have the same effect as EPO. You think monitoring parameters for therapy would be different? They aren't going to look at blood values first? before using chromatography or mass spectrometry?

 

[NoSmilez]

did you actually read what you quoted

MICRONEEDLE

its not topical application like a cream (And chael was specifically citing epo in massage creams), its just a bunch of small needles as opposed to one big one.



The shortest possible detection window for epo is directly into the vein. If you inject it into the flesh (which is what microneedles would be doing), the detection window will be longer.. why would you inject it into the flesh and increase the chances of detection? That would be stupid.

So no, the only person who would explore that as a viable option would be a moron

give it up, you thought you were being clever, googled a bunch of unrelated exploratory studies and now you are trying to argue yourself out of a hole.

OMG microneedle is a type of transdermal patch. IE TOPICAL PATCH. I am out arguing with a layman.

 

[HHJ]

I believe Chael P. Sonnen

When you are in Hell,looking up to heaven,wondering where you went wrong,it was here.