CEO Who Raised Minimum Salary to $70k, Falls On Hard Times

[kpt018]

I think it is insulting to some of them.

A software engineer who earned a difficult degree works his ass off at work, doing stuff no one is the office is intellectually capable of, and stuff that is much more valuable to the office...and he is making as much as the lady answering the phones.

What the fuck are you talking about? The average software engineer salary where I live is north of $90k per year.

That's the problem with these conversations. No one things skilled, educated workers should be paid what low skilled uneducated workers make.

Some of us simply think that if you are willing and able to work a full time job you shouldn't be skipping meals because you can't afford them or unable to pay rent.

 

[panamaican]

Yeah, but what I often see is either some guy making $75k plus gets upset that someone making $15k will now make $20k OR someone with marginally greater skills thinks they are much above a minimum wage worker when they really aren't.

Some guy making $75k is making 5x the $15k guy but less than 4x the $20k guy. Of course he'll be upset. You've reduced his perceived value to society by 20%.

And someone who's getting paid more than minimum wage is right to consider themselves well above a minimum wage worker.

That's the problem with wage floors. When you're making minimum wage, I don't know if it's because you deserve minimum wage or if it's because they legally can't pay you any less. If I'm making above minimum wage, there's no question as to my value. It's much more than yours because there's no ambiguity as to my worth.

 

[kpt018]

Some guy making $75k is making 5x the $15k guy but less than 4x the $20k guy. Of course he'll be upset. You've reduced his perceived value to society by 20%.

He can be upset but it's not rational.

And someone who's getting paid more than minimum wage is right to consider themselves well above a minimum wage worker.

That's not what I said. I state it differently.

A $10/hour janitor shouldn't feel so superior to a fast food worker making $8/hour. First off, part of their job is to keep the restaurant clean, which requires the same skills a janitor has. 2nd, a fast food worker is probably more valuable since they are dealing with people and are required to understand food safety laws. Plus, fast food workers bust their asses and work in pretty shitty conditions.

What I am saying is this $10/hour janitor should be happy about his $5/hour raise and worry less about his perceived marginally superior skill set (which may not be reality).

 

[Breakitdown]

Some guy making $75k is making 5x the $15k guy but less than 4x the $20k guy. Of course he'll be upset. You've reduced his perceived value to society by 20%.

Lol @ making 75k and basing your "perceived value to society" off that. People in this income class literally have the most retarded conceptions of wealth and value. It's no wonder why they stay in this range for their entire lives.

 

[panamaican]

He can be upset but it's not rational.



That's not what I said. I state it differently.

A $10/hour janitor shouldn't feel so superior to a fast food worker making $8/hour. First off, part of their job is to keep the restaurant clean, which requires the same skills a janitor has. 2nd, a fast food worker is probably more valuable since they are dealing with people and are required to understand food safety laws. Plus, fast food workers bust their asses and work in pretty shitty conditions.

What I am saying is this $10/hour janitor should be happy about his $5/hour raise and worry less about his perceived marginally superior skill set (which may not be reality).

No one said it's rational. Most things about status are rarely rational.

And it's easy for you to say that the janitor shouldn't feel superior to the fast food worker since you're not doing either of their jobs. But to the janitor and the fast food worker who are in same economic marketplace for homes, spouses, cars, etc. being paid 25% more than someone says something. When you reduce that, you're reducing his self-image even if you're paying him more in absolute dollars.

Maybe not rational but no less real to them because of it.

 

[OldGoat]

fucking amazing the irrational fear people have with other people being payed "too much". why do they care so much?!

Noone has that fear, oh builder of strawmen, people don't like government foolishly mandating artificial prices just to placate even more foolish voters.

 

[panamaican]

Lol @ making 75k and basing your "perceived value to society" off that. People in this income class literally have the most retarded conceptions of wealth and value. It's no wonder why they stay in this range for their entire lives.

It's easy to mock. But we all do it to some extent. We tie our self-image to these economic metrics or other status symbols and when you start changing the relative values it can be very personal to some people.

People with billion dollar net worth's have the same pissing matches.

 

[Breakitdown]

It's easy to mock. But we all do it to some extent. We tie our self-image to these economic metrics or other status symbols and when you start changing the relative values it can be very personal to some people.

Nobody saying it isn't personal to some, but to take it to this level -quitting your job- is an obvious indication of some type of mental illness. Can't imagine how inadequate and feeble that person must feel when conversing with someone who makes 250k+ per year if they tie up so much of their self esteem to their 75k / year salary. Truly embarrassing.

 

[OldGoat]

What the fuck are you talking about? The average software engineer salary where I live is north of $90k per year.

That's the problem with these conversations. No one things skilled, educated workers should be paid what low skilled uneducated workers make.

Some of us simply think that if you are willing and able to work a full time job you shouldn't be skipping meals because you can't afford them or unable to pay rent.

If you can't earn enough money with your economically low-value skills than apply for assistance. Distorting the marketplace just so an illiterate janitor isn't earning much or a teen-age fryer isn't earning much is bad economics and bad policy.

 

[RafailNadull]

Being valued higher than the pathetic maggots at your heels is very desirable. If the maggot suddenly makes what you make you get angry. This tendency is well known, widespread, and unfortunate. One of the fundamental obstacles to equality is that so many of our preferences are about where we stand in relation to others, not about where we stand.

 

[IDL]

Being valued higher than the pathetic maggots at your heels is very desirable. If the maggot suddenly makes what you make you get angry. This tendency is well known, widespread, and unfortunate. One of the fundamental obstacles to equality is that so many of our preferences are about where we stand in relation to others, not about where we stand.

If equality means a dysfunctional market it may just create poverty. Path to ruin is paved with good intentions, and all.

 

[OldGoat]

If equality means a dysfunctional market it may just create poverty. Path to ruin is paved with good intentions, and all.

You are responding to someone who thinks Freud and other pseudosciences are more rational than Adam Smith and economics.

 

[oldshadow]

Then why are you talking like they got a pay cut? They didn't. The two that quit were making the same or even more than before. They were given no less money.



So 100,000 is no complaints when the data clerk is making 40,000, but when he gets a pay raise, suddenly the 100,000 is worth less?

Do you realize how much you're justifying all the talk on this forum of "last place aversion" and the American rightwing?

And do you realize that your petulant demand that the % raise be the same for everyone would have made this entire thing both unfeasible and defeat the entire point of it?

I'm almost speechless. I didn't realize how much you'd internalized this nonsense.

Others have already answered these so I'll not repeat it other then to say if you don't understand why people want to be rewarded for their efforts to get ahead and improve themselves I don't know what to tell you.

I'm fine with some increase in the minimum wage but it's going to push other wages up.

And I gave the correct answer, start at what you want to pay your least skilled workers and scale up from there, you can base that on can you stay in business and still pay.

 

[IDL]

You are responding to someone who thinks Freud and other pseudosciences are more rational than Adam Smith and economics.

Apparently Freud was not all that into the equality argument, which is essentially a push for communism.

The Communists believe they have found the path to deliverance from our evils. According to them, man is wholly good and is well disposed to his neighbor; but the institution of private property has corrupted his nature. The ownership of private wealth gives the individual power, and with it the temptation to ill treat his neighbor; while the man who is excluded from possession is bound to rebel in hostility against his oppressor. If private property were abolished, all wealth held in common, and everyone allowed to share in the enjoyment of it, ill will and hostility would disappear among men. Since everyone’s needs would be satisfied, no one would have any reason to regard another as his enemy; all would willingly undertake the work that was necessary. I have no concern with any economic criticisms of the communist system; I cannot enquire into whether the abolition of private property is expedient or advantageous.1 But I am able to recognize that the psychological premises on which the system is based are an untenable illusion. In abolishing private property we deprive the human love of aggression of one of its instruments, certainly a strong one, though certainly not the strongest; but we have in no way altered the differences in power and influence which are misused by aggressiveness, nor have we altered anything in its nature. Aggressiveness was not created by property. It reigned almost without limit in primitive times, when property was still very scanty, and it already shows itself in the nursery almost before property has given up its primal, anal form; it forms the basis of every relation of affection and love among people (with the single exception, perhaps, of the mother’s relation to her male child). If we do away with personal rights over material wealth, there still remains prerogative in the field of sexual relationships, which is bound to become the source of the strongest dislike and the most violent hostility among men who in other respects are on an equal footing. If we were to remove this factor, too, by allowing complete freedom of sexual life and thus abolishing the family, the germ-cell of civilization, we cannot, it is true, easily foresee what new paths the development of civilization could take; but one thing we can expect, and that is that this indestructible feature of human nature will follow it there.

http://houstoncommunistparty.com/freud-on-communism/

 

[panamaican]

Nobody saying it isn't personal to some, but to take it to this level -quitting your job- is an obvious indication of some type of mental illness. Can't imagine how inadequate and feeble that person must feel when conversing with someone who makes 250k+ per year if they tie up so much of their self esteem to their 75k / year salary. Truly embarrassing.

Maybe that's more money anyone in their family has ever made? Maybe their standard for economic success is lower than yours. Who knows?

But people quit jobs to make a point all of the time. Usually when they're confident they'll find a replacement quickly, lol.

 

[Cubo de Sangre]

I can understand it, but I can understand jealousy, envy, and avarice too. This isn't meant as an insult, really. This is an unfortunate psychological tendency in humans as someone pointed out above. I would probably have an initial feeling of being slighted, too, because I'm human.

In this scenario, you were okay with your pay. You like working at this company enough to pass up on higher paying jobs elsewhere. Your pay was not cut. What's the problem?

If making more than the last guy is that important to you, you should take that job elsewhere and keep climbing up that ladder as quick as possible. Otherwise you're being inconsistent on some level.

No insult taken. But I think you and a number of other posters are too blinded by self-righteousness and that's why you can't grasp there being legitimate reasons for this policy to impact morale in a negative way. Let me try it again.

I work my ass off and then at home continue to perform work functions. I take less pay to do so because the company only has so much money to allocate to payroll. I continue to gain skills that I bring to the company through continuing education. The next guy does the minimum at work and nothing outside of work hours. He brings no background of skills and is not pursuing new ones. One day the company decides instead of 40k that guy gets 70k because that's the new minimum. I was making 80k and will get bumped to 90k. Maybe I don't want the 90k job anymore. Maybe I want the 70k job. Maybe I realize that my compensation is unlikely to increase at a rate I could get elsewhere and that my extra efforts won't be rewarded by the current employer.

You can call that envy or avarice or whatever condescending label you see fit. In the end you're advocating that the more exceptional employees be taken advantage of by significantly narrowing the compensation gap. Are people who negotiate salaries somehow unethical? Shouldn't they be happy with the minimum? It's a sad day when expecting more reward for more skills & effort is vilified. Paying everyone roughly the same sounds like a race to the bottom.

 

[ChainFlow]

Others have already answered these so I'll not repeat it other then to say if you don't understand why people want to be rewarded for their efforts to get ahead and improve themselves I don't know what to tell you.

I'm fine with some increase in the minimum wage but it's going to push other wages up.

And I gave the correct answer, start at what you want to pay your least skilled workers and scale up from there, you can base that on can you stay in business and still pay.

Where are you getting this nonsense? Who is talking about not rewarding people for their efforts? Who is talking about paying everyone the same?

Do you think that Bill Gates being a billionaire makes your income worth less?

I work my ass off and then at home continue to perform work functions. I take less pay to do so because the company only has so much money to allocate to payroll. I continue to gain skills that I bring to the company through continuing education. The next guy does the minimum at work and nothing outside of work hours. He brings no background of skills and is not pursuing new ones. One day the company decides instead of 40k that guy gets 70k because that's the new minimum. I was making 80k and will get bumped to 90k. Maybe I don't want the 90k job anymore. Maybe I want the 70k job. Maybe I realize that my compensation is unlikely to increase at a rate I could get elsewhere and that my extra efforts won't be rewarded by the current employer.

Even in this scenario, you got a raise. I'm not sure how you're talking about extra efforts not being rewarded. You're still making a lot more than the other guy.

You can call that envy or avarice or whatever condescending label you see fit. In the end you're advocating that the more exceptional employees be taken advantage of by significantly narrowing the compensation gap.

I'm not sure what you're talking about. Are you claiming that the Gravity Payments guy was taking advantage of his higher-paid employees by...

.. witchcraft? Something? because they're no worse off than before.

Are people who negotiate salaries somehow unethical? Shouldn't they be happy with the minimum? It's a sad day when expecting more reward for more skills & effort is vilified. Paying everyone roughly the same sounds like a race to the bottom.

Who is advocating roughly the same? Who said anything about negotiating salaries being bad? In what world is 70k and 120k roughly the same? Who is talking about cutting pay to higher-skilled positions? Are you actually reading what other people are typing or are you and other posters just responding to some caricature of "ebil commienists"?

It's like you think that the people making 100k beforehand were somehow harmed by this. They weren't. It's that simple.

 

[Cubo de Sangre]

Even in this scenario, you got a raise. I'm not sure how you're talking about extra efforts not being rewarded. You're still making a lot more than the other guy.
I'm not sure what you're talking about. Are you claiming that the Gravity Payments guy was taking advantage of his higher-paid employees by...

.. witchcraft? Something? because they're no worse off than before.



Who is advocating roughly the same? Who said anything about negotiating salaries being bad? In what world is 70k and 120k roughly the same? Who is talking about cutting pay to higher-skilled positions? Are you actually reading what other people are typing or are you and other posters just responding to some caricature of "ebil commienists"?

It's like you think that the people making 100k beforehand were somehow harmed by this. They weren't. It's that simple.

I'm reading and comprehending. You're not. <shrug>

 

[Jack V Savage]

Noone has that fear, oh builder of strawmen, people don't like government foolishly mandating artificial prices just to placate even more foolish voters.

Um, did you wander into the wrong thread?

Apparently Freud was not all that into the equality argument, which is essentially a push for communism.

You used to pretend not to be a radical right-winger.

 

[ChainFlow]

I'm reading and comprehending. You're not. <shrug>

The problem is that you appear to be reading things that aren't there.

Unless you can quote where anyone was arguing for roughly similar pay for all employees, against negotiating salaries, cutting pay for people, etc.

So no, I don't think I can comprehend arguments no one is making. Impressive that you can.