International CCP foreign minister fears cold war

[TheLinguist]

The Cold War never ended, it evolved.


And it will never end.

 

[IDL]

When is it not cold war? It's always cold war.

 

[Sauron]

Israel doesnt forgive Germany and neither does Russia. Russian political doctrine is to prevent Germany ever being fascist and nazi again. The west has the same interests.

Given that both Israel and Germany trade extensively with Russia I think my point is well illustrated. And to double down either more that was a war where German soldiers actively killed millions of their people; not some guy eating batsoup and inadvertently spreading a virus.

 

[Sauron]

The mutualistic symbiotic relationship between us and China has turned into a parasitic one.

I fear that your reasoning is just so simplistic that it's hard to counter without wasting a colossal amount of my time.

All i'll say is that China is here to stay. They won't be put back in a box. Other nations won't rally to the US side in an effort to confront China wholesale because it's not in their interest, and they want to sell to China, a driver of global growth. The next 50 years or so will be defined by competition between China and the US.

 

[Sauron]

Which countries do you think would ally with China?

Countries that will continue to trade with China: everyone.

If the US was extreme it could attempt to bully nations to not trade with China, but there'll be so many points of failure that it'd never work.

 

[Deleted member 159002]

Given that both Israel and Germany trade extensively with Russia I think my point is well illustrated. And to double down either more that was a war where German soldiers actively killed millions of their people; not some guy eating batsoup and inadvertently spreading a virus.

"Inadvertent" as in barbaric treatment of animals which the government had the power to stop, and then allowing people to travel from China to other countries while censoring talk about the virus which their barbarism created?

 

[Cole train]

There's so many things you can do with a 50cal!

You can:

Defend your country/resources from a Chinese invasion.

Disable planes or potentially shoot them down during landing and take off.

Shoot down helicopters following you.

Disable cars following you.

Destroy infrastructure from a distance.​

Defend the 50 itself from the CCP attempting to take it from you.

Help break your buddies out of an encirclement.

It's the most versatile of the bunch in my opinion since it's so portable. I've always wanted to get one and almost everyone smiles when they hear it at the range. Now the Chinese controlled Liberal party of Canada wants to take it from me and that makes me one sad panda.

I'm glad none of them are registered!

If my memory is correct it will go through a light tank like bmp or bmp 2 as well

Because war...war never changes

 

[Sauron]

in·ad·vert·ent

Not resulting from or achieved through deliberate planning.

Inadvertant as in its actual definition.

 

[ElKarlo]

The West is obsessed with Russia, Iran , North Korea and Venezuela while being circumspect on the bigger threat, China. The virus has opened up some peoples' eyes and brought more attention to China.

I agree. I

This is beyond just an USA issue but yeah,

I say this as an outsider,so take it as you want.
One of the worst presidents US ever had.

Yes Obama had the bad appeasement of Carter mixed with the I'll thought out interventions of W Bush. Guy had the worst foreign policy ever. Yet somehow idiots like Jack defend him and act like he had great polices. The media defended him and he was articulate. That's doesn't end he wasn't basically wrong all the time

 

[Deleted member 159002]

Inadvertant as in its actual definition.

There's nothing inadvertent about censoring talk about a virus on communication platforms and sending goons to rebuke people for sounding the alarm on the virus. Obviously the Chinese government was aware of the Chinese virus, yet they allowed people to travel from China to the rest of the world for weeks. When people have enough knowledge about a problem that they censor discussion of it, yet allow the problem to spread across the globe causing catastrophic damage, to call the Chinese's actions "inadvertent" is ludicrous to the nth degree.

Inadvertent connotes lack of culpability. The Chinese are fully culpable for their barbaric treatment of animals and they're guilty of greasing the wheels for the spread of the virus that resulted from their barbaric treatment of animals.

 

[Bald1]

I fear that your reasoning is just so simplistic that it's hard to counter without wasting a colossal amount of my time.

All i'll say is that China is here to stay. They won't be put back in a box. Other nations won't rally to the US side in an effort to confront China wholesale because it's not in their interest, and they want to sell to China, a driver of global growth. The next 50 years or so will be defined by competition between China and the US.

Well then don't.

Here's your reasoning - nobody puts Baby in a corner!

Some things are fairly simple. Enjoy all the time I've saved you.

 

[MicroBrew]

I fear that your reasoning is just so simplistic that it's hard to counter without wasting a colossal amount of my time.

All i'll say is that China is here to stay. They won't be put back in a box. Other nations won't rally to the US side in an effort to confront China wholesale because it's not in their interest, and they want to sell to China, a driver of global growth. The next 50 years or so will be defined by competition between China and the US.

The US can exert tremendous pressure, forcing countries to choose between the US market, technology access and diplomatic support or go with China. The US can also build up the consumer buying potential of India and South East Asian nations as alternatives to China's domestic market. If China is cut off from Western technology, which includes S.Korea and Japan, it is going to suffer badly.

 

[Sauron]

There's nothing inadvertent about censoring talk about a virus on communication platforms and sending goons to rebuke people for sounding the alarm on the virus. Obviously the Chinese government was aware of the Chinese virus, yet they allowed people to travel from China to the rest of the world for weeks. When people have enough knowledge about a problem that they censor discussion of it, yet allow the problem to spread across the globe causing catastrophic damage, to call the Chinese's actions "inadvertent" is ludicrous to the nth degree.

No it's not. I'm drawing a distinction between war [active] and a disease [passive] actions. Inadvertent means that China had no control over the disease.

If they had all this control that you talked about then why have few nations been able to control it. The US completely botched their response yet they seem to want to hold China to angelic standards of conduct.

Now China obviously botched it, but it's no excuse for Americans to launch into some pre-planned trade war under the auspices of covid-19. That's opportunistic and cynical, and would be regarded as such.

 

[Sauron]

Well then don't.

Here's your reasoning - nobody puts Baby in a corner!

Some things are fairly simple. Enjoy all the time I've saved you.

China isn't in a corner, and the US won't be able to put it, or keep it there.

 

[Sauron]

The US can exert tremendous pressure, forcing countries to choose between the US market, technology access and diplomatic support or go with China. The US can also build up the consumer buying potential of India and South East Asian nations as alternatives to China's domestic market. If China is cut off from Western technology, which includes S.Korea and Japan, it is going to suffer badly.

Yes, the US can exert tremendous pressure.

But on China?
What will be the nature of the threats to Japan and Taiwan etc
What will their reaction be to this economic bullying?
What will the US offer them to compensate for the loss of hundreds of billions of dollars of business?
They are not just passive receivers of diktats from the US. It'll be a diplomatic dumpster fire.

The Chinese market may well be preferable to the US market in the not too distant future. That's the reality that you'll be dealing with. To even try and isolate China in the way you're talking about would be a huge endeavour with little chance of success. At this very moment Chinese companies are working round the clock to replace dependencies on US bottlenecks; and unfortunately this will impact on the US economy. But it'll be too late because this train has been set in motion. Now it's probably good for non-US companies that can build products that strip out US dependencies.

Why does anyone think that India would be compliant little puppy for the US. Where does that assumption even come from? They are going to want to build semi-conductors too. They're also a long-time ally of Russia.

 

[MicroBrew]

Yes, the US can exert tremendous pressure.

But on China?
What will be the nature of the threats to Japan and Taiwan etc
What will their reaction be to this economic bullying?
What will the US offer them to compensate for the loss of hundreds of billions of dollars of business?
They are not just passive receivers of diktats from the US. It'll be a diplomatic dumpster fire.

The Chinese market may well be preferable to the US market in the not too distant future. That's the reality that you'll be dealing with. To even try and isolate China in the way you're talking about would be a huge endeavour with little chance of success. At this very moment Chinese companies are working round the clock to replace dependencies on US bottlenecks; and unfortunately this will impact on the US economy. But it'll be too late because this train has been set in motion. Now it's probably good for non-US companies that can build products that strip out US dependencies.

Why does anyone think that India would be compliant little puppy for the US. Where does that assumption even come from? They are going to want to build semi-conductors too. They're also a long-time ally of Russia.

If Japan relies on US origin technology in their semi-conductors , which it probably does, like TSMC of Taiwan they have to comply with US export rules.
Japan also relies on the US for defense and weapon systems. The US can use this as leverage to pressure Japan.
Japan relies heavily on the American market , which again the US can use as leverage.
Japan knows China wants to rule East Asia and wants islands that are Japanese, so they are hardly likely to empower China and shun the US.

China has a long ways to go before they can be considered on par with the West and Japan on the high technology front. Which is why they were trying to by ASML semi conductor lithography machines , but the US leaned on the Dutch government to cancel the sale. China's domestic attempt at making civilian passenger airlines relies on Western avionics. China can't yet produce jet engines competetive with Russian and Western designs, so they have to buy Russian.

India and China are mortal enemies. India and Pakistan are mortal enemies. Pakistan and China are bossom buddies. India will be happy to reap the benefits of siding with the West against China and Pakistan. Russia is a fence sitter of sorts, they aren't all weather allies of China. India's relationship with Russia is not relevant here, because Russia is harldy capable of forcing India to back China. Only recently China intruded into Indian territory, which China claims as its own. India wants to build up its domestic weapons industry, procure Western weapon systems and attract Western companies to set up shop there. There is nothing China offers that is better than what India can get from the West and Japan.

Lately Neocons have been churning out lots of OpEds warning about China and pushing a tough line. If they really see China as an existential threat and recent comments by them are a genuine indication of their sentiments then we are in for a decoupling from China and the US thwarting China's attempt at global hegemony. We may at the beginning of a new quieter cold war; time will tell.

 

[Deleted member 159002]

No it's not. I'm drawing a distinction between war [active] and a disease [passive] actions. Inadvertent means that China had no control over the disease.

If they had all this control that you talked about then why have few nations been able to control it. The US completely botched their response yet they seem to want to hold China to angelic standards of conduct.

Now China obviously botched it, but it's no excuse for Americans to launch into some pre-planned trade war under the auspices of covid-19. That's opportunistic and cynical, and would be regarded as such.

Perhaps you're unaware, but there is such a thing as involuntary manslaughter, which is punishable in a court of law. Culpability is not conditional on planning and following through on plans to harm other people.

Your question about why other countries haven't been able to "control" the Chinese virus is irrelevant. It does nothing to absolve China of its abominable behavior of allowing people to spread the virus from China to other countries while muzzling people from talking about the Chinese virus.

No excuse? What are you talking about? The US is a sovereign nation. Our country can make adopt any trade policy we want to advance our interests and ideals. Are you the designated excuse judge?

 

[Sauron]

If Japan relies on US origin technology in their semi-conductors , which it probably does, like TSMC of Taiwan they have to comply with US export rules.
Japan also relies on the US for defense and weapon systems. The US can use this as leverage to pressure Japan.
Japan relies heavily on the American market , which again the US can use as leverage.
Japan knows China wants to rule East Asia and wants islands that are Japanese, so they are hardly likely to empower China and shun the US.

I've already outlined my thoughts on the costs of excessive use of leverage.

China has a long ways to go before they can be considered on par with the West and Japan on the high technology front. Which is why they were trying to by ASML semi conductor lithography machines , but the US leaned on the Dutch government to cancel the sale. China's domestic attempt at making civilian passenger airlines relies on Western avionics. China can't yet produce jet engines competetive with Russian and Western designs, so they have to buy Russian.

And they are working on all of these things - especially semi-conductors [and associated equipment] and engines. These are obviously two of the most complicated products.

India and China are mortal enemies. India and Pakistan are mortal enemies. Pakistan and China are bossom buddies. India will be happy to reap the benefits of siding with the West against China and Pakistan. Russia is a fence sitter of sorts, they aren't all weather allies of China. India's relationship with Russia is not relevant here, because Russia is harldy capable of forcing India to back China. Only recently China intruded into Indian territory, which China claims as its own. India wants to build up its domestic weapons industry, procure Western weapon systems and attract Western companies to set up shop there. There is nothing China offers that is better than what India can get from the West and Japan.

They are not mortal enemies anymore than the US and China are mortal enemies. Both trade with each other in significant volumes. They've had border disputes ever since India got independence, and probably will continue to have them.

Your last statement is just pure arrogance. Just off the top of my head: China has better 5G, High-speed trains, solar tech etc China has experience in bringing 100's of millions out of poverty and all the experience that goes with that.

My point is that India is not some putty to be manipulated into whatever the US wants. They have their own agency and are not beholden to anyone camp. They'll act in their own best interest.

China is the worlds largest manufacturer. The idea that all that can be removed is just fantasy.

Also, the 'West' is not a monolith either. Europe and America don't have the same strategic interest. Europe is not a superpower looking to defend its position against China. It sells a lot to China. To blithely assume that Europe is along for the ride makes some seriously big assumptions as to a) that European countries want any part of a US-China rivalry; and b) even if they did the extent that they'd go along with it.

Lately Neocons have been churning out lots of OpEds warning about China and pushing a tough line. If they really see China as an existential threat and recent comments by them are a genuine indication of their sentiments then we are in for a decoupling from China and the US thwarting China's attempt at global hegemony. We may at the beginning of a new quieter cold war; time will tell.

I agree. An economic decoupling will continue. Especially if Trump gets reelected. But it could easily be defanged as well. Biden may not agree with the the strategy of trying to kill Huawei outright.

 

[Sauron]

Perhaps you're unaware, but there is such a thing as involuntary manslaughter, which is punishable in a court of law. snip.

None of this is relevant.

No excuse? What are you talking about? The US is a sovereign nation. Our country can make adopt any trade policy we want to advance our interests and ideals. Are you the designated excuse judge?

The US can do what it wants. Doesn't make it right. The problem is that soon China will be the one doing the doing.

 

[SammyPops]

The US can exert tremendous pressure, forcing countries to choose between the US market, technology access and diplomatic support or go with China. The US can also build up the consumer buying potential of India and South East Asian nations as alternatives to China's domestic market. If China is cut off from Western technology, which includes S.Korea and Japan, it is going to suffer badly.

And as a Canadian, hopefully we'll replace Trudy and a PC PM would happily be bullied by Trump, and I'd be glad.