Law Cashless Society: Should Retail Stores & Restaurants be Allowed to Refuse Cash as a Legal Tender?

When you pay with a debit card, aren't you technically paying with cash? I don't think it would be wrong to not accept paper cash. I was at the grocery store the other day and this old lady paid with exact change and she had to count it and it took forever. This old lady only has limited time left to live, yet she's wasting her precious final moments counting change.
 
From the OP:

Businesses that still want cashless transactions can provide a machine that exchanges cash for a gift card, but must accept cash if the machine breaks down, according to the new law.
Ha, serves me right for not reading the link. But i'll give myself credit for coming up with, on my own, the same solution.

Nothing in my post said anything about progress. So long as a nation has legal tender then it's perfectly reasonable, probably essential, to require businesses to accept it.

And the cash machine model is not going to solve the problem. There's going to be a cost to the machines. An electrical cost to run them, a labor cost to stock them, a materials cost for the cards, a risk of theft cost for having them. Such machines are going to come with a surcharge of some amount to offset those costs, which is essentially raising the cost for the poor.
That is easily fixable. The gov't can simply pass a law that they must do such conversions at no extra charges. If the store wants to gain this efficiency and save so much money getting rid of tellers this is still a big win for the stores.
 
That is easily fixable. The gov't can simply pass a law that they must do such conversions at no extra charges. If the store wants to gain this efficiency and save so much money getting rid of tellers this is still a big win for the stores.
Which means a loss for the business owner. I don't think the stores are getting rid of transaction staff, just simplifying how they're handling the purchase side of the transactions. Because you can get rid of tellers and still accept cash at your business. I've seen a number of the self-serve checkout stations that accept and dispense cash and change.

It's not about the number of people you're using, it's about the simplicity (which is understandable).
 
Which means a loss for the business owner. I don't think the stores are getting rid of transaction staff, just simplifying how they're handling the purchase side of the transactions. Because you can get rid of tellers and still accept cash at your business. I've seen a number of the self-serve checkout stations that accept and dispense cash and change.

It's not about the number of people you're using, it's about the simplicity (which is understandable).
Its a gain compared to the status quo. Its a gain compared to what you say.

Store owner : I want to go cashless as it means a 3X saving on costs and increase in efficiencies and profits.
Gov't : well you must maintain a cash machine option
Store owner : if I must, ok. It means my gain is now only 2.5X but ok.

Anyway I can tell based on all the FinTech conferences I have been to over the last 8 years things ARE absolutely going this way. The store without check out, the smart cart with auto payment tied to App and an Account is coming. Walmart was working on a version of this using RFID chips in the inventory back in 2004 time frame and i probably still have articles I had saved from back then I can dig up.

And it is easy to see why they want it.
 
The OP doesn't say this and I haven't seen it elsewhere but my first though was the surcharge for such machines. It's like ATM machines, you go to some places and the surcharge is tiny, go to other locations and they're charging $4+ dollars on both sides of the withdrawal. I doubt that any business is going to just provide card machines without passing on some of that cost to the user.

It would most likely work like a Coinstar machine.

With Coinstar, if you want cash back after dumping your coins you will pay a fee (10%, I believe). But retailers, usually grocery or discount department stores, can offer gift cards for their own or their partnered retailers' establishments without a fee.

The gift cards are acquired by Coinstar at a discount from their partnering retailers, which essentially covers the fee you would incur from choosing the cash back option.
 
Its a gain compared to the status quo. Its a gain compared to what you say.

Store owner : I want to go cashless as it means a 3X saving on costs and increase in efficiencies and profits.
Gov't : well you must maintain a cash machine option
Store owner : if I must, ok. It means my gain is now only 2.5X but ok.

Anyway I can tell based on all the FinTech conferences I have been to over the last 8 years things ARE absolutely going this way. The store without check out, the smart cart with auto payment tied to App and an Account is coming. Walmart was working on a version of this using RFID chips in the inventory back in 2004 time frame and i probably still have articles I had saved from back then I can dig up.

And it is easy to see why they want it.
Like I said - you can go minimal staff, cashier-free transactions and still take cash in your store - the checkout machines already exist.

And I didn't say things aren't going this way - it's been the trend direction since Amazon pushed the electronic vs. brick and mortar divergence out there (I'm sure you've seen the checkout lines that say "No Cash/Checks." for years). And it's not just in the retail space. An area where you can really see how this is playing out is in the parking meter space. The desire to reduce/eliminate cash at the parking meters is probably several years ahead of the retail space here, at least in terms of scale of implementation. Anecdotally, I knew a guy who ran a company that digitized the parking meter space in his city, this was 15 years ago. They went with a targeted card model (which had an acquisition cost to the user) and tied it into the public transportation system as well. Of course, the money is made in the transaction premium, blah, blah, blah, I know that you can work out profit models on your own. Anyhoo, my point being that this isn't new and we're not moving in this direction, we've been moving in this direction for a long time already.

What I said that a municipality has a responsibility to ensure that cash is still accepted within its jurisdiction. A single cash-free business here and there isn't a big deal. A city's problem is when the majority of its businesses adopt that model. Then you run the risk of shutting out your poorer citizens.
 
It would most likely work like a Coinstar machine.

With Coinstar, if you want cash back after dumping your coins you will pay a fee (10%, I believe). But retailers, usually grocery or discount department stores, can offer gift cards for their own or their partnered retailers' establishments without a fee.

The gift cards are acquired by Coinstar at a discount from their partnering retailers, which essentially covers the fee you would incur from choosing the cash back option.
I know how it would work. I've known other businesses that implement this model in other spaces. Almost no one gives out the card for free and no one skips a cost for the conversion, either a processing fee for putting money on the card or for taking the money off the card. And no one skips both. Because the long term costs add up. Even the cost of getting the cash transported from the machine to a bank for deposit or loading the machine is a 3rd party cost and the retailer isn't going to just eat it.
 
So long as I'm on this subject, I should give a solution of some sort.

Make local businesses pay people on cards, not with cash or checks. I'm curious if businesses would accept the cost of producing bi-weekly "pay-cards" for their minimum wage workers.
 
Like I said - you can go minimal staff, cashier-free transactions and still take cash in your store - the checkout machines already exist.

And I didn't say things aren't going this way - it's been the trend direction since Amazon pushed the electronic vs. brick and mortar divergence out there (I'm sure you've seen the checkout lines that say "No Cash/Checks." for years). And it's not just in the retail space. An area where you can really see how this is playing out is in the parking meter space. The desire to reduce/eliminate cash at the parking meters is probably several years ahead of the retail space here, at least in terms of scale of implementation. Anecdotally, I knew a guy who ran a company that digitized the parking meter space in his city, this was 15 years ago. They went with a targeted card model (which had an acquisition cost to the user) and tied it into the public transportation system as well. Of course, the money is made in the transaction premium, blah, blah, blah, I know that you can work out profit models on your own. Anyhoo, my point being that this isn't new and we're not moving in this direction, we've been moving in this direction for a long time already.

What I said that a municipality has a responsibility to ensure that cash is still accepted within its jurisdiction. A single cash-free business here and there isn't a big deal. A city's problem is when the majority of its businesses adopt that model. Then you run the risk of shutting out your poorer citizens.
ya I am not sure where we are disagreeing then.

The model of no cashiers but offering cash machines that can provide a Gift Type Card to those who want to use cash seems to satisfy what you are saying so I assume you would have no issue with that.


They can load their carts, see the total payable on the cart and just hit the Cash/Card machine on the way out, buy a card and use it for seamless check out. You make it so the card is re-loadable and it might even serve as some sort of quasi loyalty card if they tend to leave any money on it.
 
It would most likely work like a Coinstar machine.

With Coinstar, if you want cash back after dumping your coins you will pay a fee (10%, I believe). But retailers, usually grocery or discount department stores, can offer gift cards for their own or their partnered retailers' establishments without a fee.

The gift cards are acquired by Coinstar at a discount from their partnering retailers, which essentially covers the fee you would incur from choosing the cash back option.
Not familiar with them but yes that sounds exactly like how it could work.

The retailer could see the machines as a sales and loyalty tool. They DRAW in those who have cash and who want an option to spend it so as long as the Cash Conversion to Card is only useable in THEIR store, they eat the fee.

The model i saw years ago, also loaded coupons on it, to entice buying of certain products which is something else that Product Manufacturers would Pay the Retailer for to make the card free to the consumer.

They put their $50 cash in the machine and out comes a card with $50 cash credit but also $20 worth of discounts on certain product purchases.

I know how it would work. I've known other businesses that implement this model in other spaces. Almost no one gives out the card for free and no one skips a cost for the conversion, either a processing fee for putting money on the card or for taking the money off the card. And no one skips both. Because the long term costs add up. Even the cost of getting the cash transported from the machine to a bank for deposit or loading the machine is a 3rd party cost and the retailer isn't going to just eat it.

Sure they would if the savings are 3X but with a cash machine the savings

are reduced to 2.5X.

You need to see the math before making your statement.

If the gov't says you MUST give an option for taking cash and the machine in an option or a Teller at a till is the other option and the Teller cost more, the retailer would happily eat it.
 
Last edited:
I don't do business with anyone who doesn't accept cash. Fuck a cashless society. You fuckers have too much faith in electronic systems.
 
From a consumer stand point it is great, for small business who can evade taxes not so good. But I have not used cash in ages, it was always a paying having to go to the ATM for cash why do it today when everyone accepts a bunch of electronic methods of payment, even QR code from a Smartphone.
 
ya I am not sure where we are disagreeing then.

The model of no cashiers but offering cash machines that can provide a Gift Type Card to those who want to use cash seems to satisfy what you are saying so I assume you would have no issue with that.


They can load their carts, see the total payable on the cart and just hit the Cash/Card machine on the way out, buy a card and use it for seamless check out. You make it so the card is re-loadable and it might even serve as some sort of quasi loyalty card if they tend to leave any money on it.
You were arguing with me about the direction of business while ignoring that my point was that municipalities have a responsibility to their residents to ensure that cash is readily accepted within their jurisdiction. Then you mentioned the machines, to which I responded that would turn into a charge on the consumer because retailers would recoup the cost somewhere. You keep trying to convince me that companies will not add in surcharges...meanwhile every industry where businesses have eliminated cash or dramatically reduced it, they have added a surcharge for accessing cash or acquiring a card.

Pay you phone bill by phone? 3rd party interface charges a fee. Convert change to bills? Fee. Need cash on site? Fee. Buying a movie ticket online? Fee.

All throughout the electronic payment landscape you have processing fees but in the "convert cash to a physical card" space, everyone is going to diverge from history and absorb the costs. Okay, you can believe that fairy tale if you want. It still has nothing to do with my point.

Nowhere in there have you actually addressed my point about the duty of the municipality to its residents.
 
I know how it would work. I've known other businesses that implement this model in other spaces. Almost no one gives out the card for free and no one skips a cost for the conversion, either a processing fee for putting money on the card or for taking the money off the card. And no one skips both. Because the long term costs add up. Even the cost of getting the cash transported from the machine to a bank for deposit or loading the machine is a 3rd party cost and the retailer isn't going to just eat it.

You know how it might work. I gave you an example of a current business model/partnership that could be used for modeling how it might work.

The machine itself handles the processing. Coinstar prints out no-fee eGift Cards for supporting retailers/partners as well as for the retailer renting the machine. The grocer or discount department store rents the Coinstar machine because it increases foot traffic to their establishment, which is indisputable.

Coinstar even handles the back-end cash services, if a retailer so wishes. It's all baked into the agreement signed to rent the machine, and Coinstar's services are essentially a la carte.
 
From the OP:

Businesses that still want cashless transactions can provide a machine that exchanges cash for a gift card, but must accept cash if the machine breaks down, according to the new law.

I went to a hockey game in Germany where the arena concessions worked on this system. It really shortened the wait in line, I thought.
 
You were arguing with me about the direction of business while ignoring that my point was that municipalities have a responsibility to their residents to ensure that cash is readily accepted within their jurisdiction. Then you mentioned the machines, to which I responded that would turn into a charge on the consumer because retailers would recoup the cost somewhere. You keep trying to convince me that companies will not add in surcharges...meanwhile every industry where businesses have eliminated cash or dramatically reduced it, they have added a surcharge for accessing cash or acquiring a card.

Pay you phone bill by phone? 3rd party interface charges a fee. Convert change to bills? Fee. Need cash on site? Fee. Buying a movie ticket online? Fee.

All throughout the electronic payment landscape you have processing fees but in the "convert cash to a physical card" space, everyone is going to diverge from history and absorb the costs. Okay, you can believe that fairy tale if you want. It still has nothing to do with my point.

Nowhere in there have you actually addressed my point about the duty of the municipality to its residents.
Ya I just read up on the Coin Star after the other poster mentioned it and that is exactly what they are doing. No added fee for in store use.

Retailers see it as a benefit that they have this option to help people turn their cash (coins) into a more useable currency and it works.

So no not every example is as you say.

And if govt simply mandates 'you must give a cash option at no extra charge as you cannot deny legal currency ' that ensures it will be the case.

My intention was never 'to argue' with you on. It was a discussion. You offered reasons you thought it would never work and an absolute position. I said i THOUGHT it COULD work, and here's why . And gave my examples.

At every reply you seemed to get defense and insist I was wrong and here is why it would not work. Again you were absolute in your position and defensive. I was avoiding being absolute while trying to show you how the hurdles you presented could be overcome but it seems you just dont want to hear that. You've made up your mind... it won't work.
 
You know how it might work. I gave you an example of a current business model/partnership that could be used for modeling how it might work.

The machine itself handles the processing. Coinstar prints out no-fee eGift Cards for supporting retailers/partners as well as for the retailer renting the machine. The grocer or discount department store rents the Coinstar machine because it increases foot traffic to their establishment, which is indisputable.

Coinstar even handles the back-end cash services, if a retailer so wishes. It's all baked into the agreement signed to rent the machine, and Coinstar's services are essentially a la carte.
Indeed.

But he has taken a position prior and has no desire or intention to soften or modify it once done despite new info being presented.

It is clear the very introduction of new info irritates him in a 'I dont want to hear it' type way.
 
Banning cash probably shouldn't be legal.
It's US currency. We should be VERY cautious about anything that could potentially devalue it. Saying it's not acceptable currency firmly fits in that category.
Not taking cash would also be a problem for the poor. That's probably WILDLY overstated, because the types of business that go cashless tend to be businesses that don't cater to the poor.
In the event of an emergency cash still works and it would benefit us to have a society that can still work with it.

For me, I can't stand using cash. I'd personally like to see a law that makes it leagal to throw shit at people in front of you in line paying cash for as long as it takes to count and figure out change.
 
A business should have the right to determine what form of payment they want to accept...this is just nonsense pandering to illegals...
 
Back
Top