Casein protien and the anabolic state

Discussion in 'Dieting / Supplement Discussion' started by Urban, Oct 10, 2005.

  1. Urban

    Urban Savage Mystic

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    So Today's article on t-mag got me thinking about casein protein and how little I actually know about the bulking process. To save time, I'll just say that they reccomend 80g of casein before bed as a measure to not only prevent your body from slipping into a catabolic state (which can be accomplished with only 40 grams), but help build additional muscle while sleeping. My first question is, should I be taking casein protein before sleeping and is such a large amounts neccessary? Would getting this much protein from dairy products (eating a big dairy based meal or drinking a lot of milk before bed) be a bad Idea? cause 40 grams of protein from milk is 4.5 cups of milk which also includes 36g of fat and 54g of carbs.

    Secondly, as somebody interested only in strength (not in sarcoplasmic hypertrophy) should I be concerned with the rate at which I put on muscle? There are essentially two types of hypertrophy and while it's not possible to fully encourage one or the other, Sarcomeric Hypertrophy is noted as being significantly slower than sarcoplasmic. T-Mag has become a bodybuilding website and it's articles are geared towards more muscle no matter where it comes from, which should concern anyone interested more in lb for lb strength.

    Third, if I just pack on gobs of sarcoplasmic hypertrophy and then begin to train in a fashion targetted towards sarcomeric, will my muscles convert from one to the other? Will I even get a lot of sarcoplasmic hypertorphy if I train in a manner associated with sarcomeric (myofibrillar) hypertrophy?

    Lastly, what exactly is an anabolic state? My initial google-based research shows that I need not just protein but carbs too. So why then would they reccomend low carb protein at the end of the article? In this case drinking a quart of milk before bet would be more beneficial than using a protein powder wouldn't it? though I know that all the protein in milk isn't casein (it IS where whey comes from right?), so to get 40g of casein I'd have to drink even MORE milk. It's all terribly confusing. Good thing I like milk though huh?

    Anyways, any help you guys can offer would be appreciated.
     
  2. supersudo

    supersudo Purple Belt

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    i'm lactose intolerant...

    i found out one day when i consumed a half-gallon of milk with about 4-5 bowls of cereal over the course of maybe 2-3 hours.. and was bed-ridden for 3 days.. err.. toilet-ridden i should say.. and literally farting every 1-2min. :icon_chee
     
  3. Urban

    Urban Savage Mystic

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    You could try yogurt. A lot of people who are lactose intollerant have no problem with yogurt. Besides, yogurt is like the best food ever.
     
  4. Chad Hamilton

    Chad Hamilton Amateur Fighter

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    Do you want your organs processing food while under repair?
    I want to know this answer. Baffled.

    By repair I mean sleeping.
     
  5. BAS_FAN

    BAS_FAN Purple Belt

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    Casien protien will help you not only build muscle while you sleep (in theory) but also help you recover quicker (fact). Now, if we are to use the 2 beneficial points of casien in this respect, we would find that recovery is far more important than hypertrophy to a strength athlete. In all my nutritional research and courses, everyone has agreed that protien is a small part of addin muslce mass. Although its true that protien make up muscle and all that stuff everyone knows, carbs are much more important when it comes to getting stronger and bigger. One great food to use before bed it cottage cheese. It has much more casien than milk in much less amounts. However the fat content may be higher....im not sure. I am no guru when it comes to nutrition but i would suggest that any edge we can utilize in terms of nutirtion to get bigger, stronger and faster, we should use it.
     
  6. Rjkd12

    Rjkd12 Certified Bastard

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    Do you want your body to attempt to repair your muscles without any building materials?

    Additionally our muscles are slowly being reparied any time you are not currently lifting weights. Do you not eat at all?

    Oh wait, this could have been a post made from when you were in the clouds.
     
  7. i wouldnt think you would need 80g. maybe 40.
     
  8. BAS_FAN

    BAS_FAN Purple Belt

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    cut freakin UP!
     
  9. tylerfist

    tylerfist Banned Banned

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    the protein in cottage cheese is nearly 100% casein, plus its a lot cheaper than PM protein formulas you can buy
     
  10. Sinister

    Sinister Doctor of Doom Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    I love the little rivalry here between Chad and RJ, you two love each other and you know it.

    Anywho, Casein is actually avery good idea before bed because as RJ hints, the deconstruction process of muscles in the catabolic state won't have so much effect on the muscles, the casein should be more readily used for re-building as opposed to the breakdown of aminos and/or muscle tissue, as well as the depletion of glycogen stores. You'll wake up more anabolically charged. Secret trick of bodybuilders before Casein came to be used for this express purpose in supplements like Muscle Milk was to awaken at about 2am, slug a protein shake, and go straight back to sleep.
     
  11. Sinister

    Sinister Doctor of Doom Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    Man, I did a good job of answering barely any of this, my bad.

    80g of Casein is WAY over the top. I'm not even sure your body would assimilate that much all at once without most of it being converted to stored bodyfat. Especially before bed. The most I've seen even the 400lb powerlifters consume is 50g per serving and at-least an hour apart, and that's usually of whey and not casein. So I'd say no, 80g is absolutely not necessary. But the use of Casein in bulking is a good way to go, I mentioned the Muscle Milk, which again was made for a high concentration Casein serving that can be used any time of the day, with no trans-fats, and no lactose for the lactose intolerant. It'd be a good investment if you're interested in making the most of Casein use. I eat a lot of yogurt, but the most I've seen from it is about 15-18g. The trade-off of higher dairy fats and.or sugars make it not really worth consuming in very high amounts to get sufficient Casein intake.

    I don't think you should necessarily be concerned with the rate at which you put on muscle. Given you're properly increasing your feats. The number one mistake I see of guys who want to bulk is that their workouts don't change much to handle the increase in calories/energy. They might lift a little more, but you're versatile and like to train a lot of the more odd feats of strength. I would say do these more regularly. Your Farmer's Walking, Tire Flipping, I would say use the bulking phase to up your training in order to maximize your caloric intake and not just be huge and weak. You definitely need good enough carbs, most of the bigger bodybuilders I've ever talked to eat about 2 heads of lettuce a day (these are the over 250lb'ers) and eat oatmeal out the wazoo. Plus man, you're going to have to SERIOUSLY make sure you get enough sleep. Rest for big men is very important, otherwise you spend most of your day sluggish because your body cannot repair that much muscle tissue in few hours. The hypertrophy shouldn't be an issue. Most bodybuilders and strength trainers lift the same. The difference is though, ironically enough, even the heaviest bodybuilders don't eat a whole lot of calories compared to Powerlifters and Strongmen. The only bodybuilder I've ever seen who consumes like they do is Greg Kovacs and he's the only bodybuilder to have ever legitimately reached the 400lb mark.

    Anabolic simply enough only refers to the state of the body in which substances are being assimilated into living tissue, in bodybuilding an athletic terms it's when your muscles are growing. Catabolic is the opposite, when the muscles are breaking down. Huge gains are why lifters and builders do everything under the sun to be able to sustain this period, it means they're constantly growing. Now of course this isn't entirely perpetual, otherwise you'd have 500lb guys walking around by now. It's going to be limited by genetics and what your organs can sustain. I don't know where they got this low carb crap from...most lifters need sufficient carb/protein/fat intake and it all has to be balanced. Hope that helps any...
     
  12. Madmick

    Madmick Cerebrage Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    I don't have anything to add to the nutrition.

    Urban, I think Bompa gets to this in his full text, but I'm not to this part yet, but I know hypertrophy- and I think specifically sarcoplasmic hypertrophy- slows the muscle's force output over time: meaning, it diminishes power.

    Athletes are supposed to train for hypertrophy differently, with 3-5 rest between sets, but there was very little about this in Periodization for Sports, and why, so I'm gonna write up on it if there's more details in the main book.

    Sorry I don't have more than this, Urban.



    I don't think hypertrophy converts muscle fibers, though, because it doesn't tax the aerobic system at all.
     
  13. Rjkd12

    Rjkd12 Certified Bastard

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    The rate you put on muscle is similar to the rate you put on size and strength. Entropy previously stated putting on mass is a good thing and should not be scoffed at because of numerous reasons he listed. I think that regarding ONLY MUSCLE the strength you have is directly correlated to the cross sectional area and thats it. Nobody has stronger myosin and actin interactions and other stuff like that. So the only reason why someone with the same amount of cross sectional area can appear to be stronger is more of a kinesthetic sense or neurological. Muscle is muscle. That is why some people are just good athletes, because they are familiar with their body and how to move. Other people are not because they just don't 'get' certain things and movements. The guy who lifts his legs off the floor and you can see contraction all over his body during a bench is someone with bad kinesthetic sense who may not be as good at bench for someone with the exact same amount of muscle. Co-contraction (of antagonistic muscle groups) can actually limit the amount of force you can produce.

    I am not very familiar with the difference here, or how great of a difference you can achieve between the two. This sounds much different than changing fiber types over, so I will not talk about that. I would assume you cannot get large differences is sarcoplasmic hypertrophy and myfibrillar hypertrophy. This can clearly be seen in how powerlifters are huge and bodybuilders are still strong as hell. I honestly wouldn't concern yourself about the two because I don't think it matters that much. I think the aid in plain mass gain would be worth training a bit for both. As in converting per se, I don't see how extra fluid or extra myofibrils would directly convert between the two. Just as impossible as fat converting to muscle which is so believed.


    One thing to realize is that you cannot be in a strictly anabolic state or a catabolic state, and that anabolic isn't 'good' and catabolic isn't 'bad.' Anabolic just means taking two small things and making something bigger (increase in muscles) and catabolic is just breaking one larger thing down into two smaller things (fat to energy, food to energy, ATP-> ADP Pi). You can be overall anabolic, where you'd be gaining size (muscle and fat) or catabolic and losing size (muscle and fat). Also remember that it is muscle AND fat, never one or the other.

    So the article throws around fancy words to sound nice. They are basically saying that if you don't have the building blocks to build muscle you will be in a catabolic state, which is semi true. Many athletes do not eat tons of cottage cheese or eat superextracaseinemethoxy protein and still gain weight. You do not need 80 grams either. I think a decent size bowl of cottage cheese before bed is enough. The protein in milk is whey and casine btw.

    I also wouldn't recommend drinking a protein shake in the middle of the night. I would assume (I don't know for sure) that the disruption in your sleep cycle and the possible disruption in hormone secretion would take away from all the benefit of 20 grams of whey in he middle of the night. Also I don't know how easily the body can concentrate on sleeping and repairing when all of a sudden it has to wake up a bit to digest some protein.
     

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