Case for Reparations: Worth the Read

[ruthless robert]

I think the author would argue (with some justification) that black people broadly speaking do not enjoy the same standard of living as white people (Native Americans definitely don't) and that there are some very clear historical reasons for that that are still relevant today. I think there are a lot of good arguments against reparations but I don't think blacks and whites enjoying American prosperity on an equal footing is a good one.

Wow, some people and their lost concept of reality.


maybe if there were more fathers in the black community maybe these kids would have better direction in life

maybe if the majority of black babies that were born were from husband and wife instead of single mothers maybe blacks would be able to do better

maybe if their choice of influence, tv shows, and music was positive instead of lyrics that talk about killing dis fool and banging dat hoe..... maybe they would fair better in an advanced corporate society

maybe if english was their first language instead of ebonics, maybe they could communicate in an advanced corporate environment

not all blacks are like this BUT the ones that are fail at life. There are many great doctors, surgeons, military, ceo's etc. etc. that are black so dont act like black people are held back, in 2014 the only thing holding someone back is themselves

we need personal responsibility no matter the color or gender. You'll find on the corporate level there isnt racism its actually open and friendly..... i just had a corporate meeting and there were white, asian, middle easterners, mexicans, blacks and some polish and russians. I've never seen that many different races in one room, and you know what they all have in common? They're all some of the top grads from an i.t. field. You'll find out that credentials is what matter in the real world.

it annoys me when people wanna sit on the sideline and cry about the past and act like they dont have a chance, get off your ass and make something of yourself, or just sit there and null over the past making yourself mad at white people just because they are white, then complain that you dont get enough free shit.....

.

 

[lfd0311]

I think that's a big part of the point. Did you read the whole article, including the section on Israel and Germany post-holocaust? It sounds like one of the big benefits was ending acrimony by making a large public commitment to trying to right the wrongs of the past.

The wrongs of the past were not done to the people living today. That is quite frankly silly.

 

[James Keith]

I've never bought this line of argument. If your bar is Ethiopia then yes, we're doing pretty well. Is that a reasonable standard for the greatest nation on Earth? I think not.

The natural state of humanity is subsistence level survival. We are born with absolutely no possessions or skills save the very basics. Everything we have beyond that we should be thankful for. If you have more and want to help someone with less, good for you and him. Forcing people to fix a problem they didn't create is a different story.

 

[Uchi Mata]

Snort.

Yes, throw the money at a zip code. That's brilliant. It's not like people wanting to game the system can't move or anything. Or immigrants don't live in poor areas. Or politicians won't play with the zip codes to send a little largesse toward some needy constituents.

So your theory is that people will move into the ghetto for an extended period of time so that they can get a low interest loan to move out? And that they'll time this to coincide with a potential law? And you think I'm being unrealistic.

 

[ncordless]

The wrongs of the past were not done to the people living today. That is quite frankly silly.

The wrongs of the past do still effect the people living today. To think that the past doesn't effect the present is quite silly.

 

[lfd0311]

The wrongs of the past do still effect the people living today. To think that the past doesn't effect the present is quite silly.

Slavery ended in this country 152 years ago. Nobody living in this country today was personally effected by slavery.

 

[Zankou]

I agree that most of us (of all colors) are moochers on the gravy train of technological improvement driving us to economic progress. But that still doesn't explain the disparities between colors of moochers. If you don't have a job, if you're not educated, if you have a low IQ, if you're family is broken - all of these are sufficient to explain the differences between the moochers.

I think I would say it differently, which is from a *political* perspective, given the egregious injustices committed against American blacks, it can be reasonable to direct special benefits (AA being obvious) towards them under the *presumption* that their comparatively harsh state reflects the legacy of those injustices.

That's not saying that it is in fact the best explanation for why penniless black guy in 1970 is worse off than penniless Latino immigrant in 1970. It's saying that given the severity of the problem, and the severity of historical discrimination, it's reasonable to act from a policy perspective as if much, if not most, of the problem is the legacy of invidious discrimination.

I don't think that's going to get you to the point of paying monetary reparations, but I think it's a reasonable way to look at justifying things like AA.

 

[Social Distance Warrior]

Wow, some people and their lost concept of reality.


maybe if there were more fathers in the black community maybe these kids would have better direction in life

maybe if the majority of black babies that were born were from husband and wife instead of single mothers maybe blacks would be able to do better

maybe if their choice of influence, tv shows, and music was positive instead of lyrics that talk about killing dis fool and banging dat hoe..... maybe they would fair better in an advanced corporate society

maybe if english was their first language instead of ebonics, maybe they could communicate in an advanced corporate environment

not all blacks are like this BUT the ones that are fail at life. There are many great doctors, surgeons, military, ceo's etc. etc. that are black so dont act like black people are held back, in 2014 the only thing holding someone back is themselves

we need personal responsibility no matter the color or gender. You'll find on the corporate level there isnt racism its actually open and friendly..... i just had a corporate meeting and there were white, asian, middle easterners, mexicans, blacks and some polish and russians. I've never seen that many different races in one room, and you know what they all have in common? They're all some of the top grads from an i.t. field. You'll find out that credentials is what matter in the real world.

it annoys me when people wanna sit on the sideline and cry about the past and act like they dont have a chance, get off your ass and make something of yourself, or just sit there and null over the past making yourself mad at white people just because they are white, then complain that you dont get enough free shit.....

.

Ohhh Robert...you so Ruthless....

I don't know who I love more, you or Warrior Poet.

 

[Deleted member 159002]

Should we trace every piece of property's history to the moment of initial appropriation and determine if they were appropriated justly, and on that basis decide how much of society's resources each person is entitled to? There's no denying that the injustice of slavery caused generations of poverty (even after slavery was abolished), but why stop there? If my grandfather was a victim of injustice, and this lead to me having less resources than I would have had had my grandfather not been wronged, should I be recompensed by the wrongdoer's children/grandchildren?

 

[nixkid]

So it's about redistribution in general, really. Free money for poor people. I get it.

Here is a salient quote from the article:

Discriminatory laws joined the equal burden of citizenship to unequal distribution of its bounty.

The author is saying that discriminatory federal housing programs that excluded blacks and enriched whites were wealth redistribution programs for all intents and purposes. Blacks had the burden of citizenship (i.e. taxes) where they were forced to contribute to housing programs spearheaded by the federal government but were not allowed to benefit from them. In fact, these programs were not even neutral towards blacks, they were harmful. From that standpoint, reparations doesn't sound like redistribution to me, it sounds like redress.

 

[Cold Front]

In that particular case, he was talking about wealth creation. The trade in slaves made them an asset that created wealth for their owners just as the market for housing gives value to your home and increases your wealth. The use of free labor is what created added value in agriculture much like technology and automation enable cheap production which creates added value in business today. Thats essentially what gave slaves value as an asset.

But that's an economically ignorant argument.

Look, it's very simple. Technology drives economic productivity which in turn drives the increase in economic wealth. The U.S. didn't industrialize in the south using slave labor.

So you can pretend there is some secret economic sauce to slavery that allowed plantation owners to add value, but it's only a just-so story you're making up by using words like technology and slavery in the same sentence.

In America, education is tightly coupled to real estate and homeownership. Those who live in low income neighborhoods recieve worse educations. Again, this is problematic for blacks for the reasons that author outlined: federal discriminatory policy by the FHA in the form of redlining and the exclusion of black veterans from the benefits of Title III of the G.I. bill. He also goes over family structure as well. You're listing symptoms of the problem not the root causes of it.

You're confusing correlation with causation. When Bush tried to help out blacks and Hispanics with his minority homeownership program, he only helped to increase the dimensions of a housing bubble that eventually hurt everyone's prosperity when it popped. Because they were economically unprepared to own homes.

Wealth has nothing to do with homeownership, except as a correlation.

 

[Uchi Mata]

The natural state of humanity is subsistence level survival. We are born with absolutely no possessions or skills save the very basics. Everything we have beyond that we should be thankful for. If you have more and want to help someone with less, good for you and him. Forcing people to fix a problem they didn't create is a different story.

By that logic, why pay government debts that were incurred by past generations? Why follow laws passed by past generations? We pay for the mistakes of the past all the time, I don't think saying 'oh, that was the past' absolves us as a society from having to deal with the aftermath. What is does absolve of us, what frankly we don't even need absolution for, is personal responsibility for the sins of the past. But there's a big difference between no individual being accountable and the US as a nation not being accountable. I don't feel any personal guilt because I'm white, but I also don't feel personally indebted because of Reagan's defense spending or TARP. Doesn't mean I don't have to pay taxes to pay that off, and I'm not sure that my or your lack of personal responsibility pertains to our responsibility as a society for what was done in the past but still has a major negative impact on the shape of society today.

 

[ObsoleteSoul]

From what I gather, these reparations will only be given to blacks, and not all the other peoples that where given the shaft throughout our countries existence. Well I cannot see the Natives, Mexicans, Chinese, or any of them getting testy over them being passed over.

 

[Devout Pessimist]

I can't imagine the financial cost that would have to be paid before even settling on reparation payment figures, who should pay them and who should receive them. I am sure billions alone would go to legal fees on top of all the other unseen costs.

Even if an argument can be made that reparation payments are justified, the cost and complications would eventually drive the effort into the ground.

 

[Cold Front]

So your theory is that people will move into the ghetto for an extended period of time so that they can get a low interest loan to move out?

Why move to the ghetto when the ghetto can come to you? Just buy a $3,000 home in Detroit and pretend to live there while you pick up your check every other Wednesday.

And that they'll time this to coincide with a potential law?

Yeah, because it's not like people don't respond to monetary incentives.

 

[Uchi Mata]

But that's an economically ignorant argument.

Look, it's very simple. Technology drives economic productivity which in turn drives the increase in economic wealth. The U.S. didn't industrialize in the south using slave labor.

So you can pretend there is some secret economic sauce to slavery that allowed plantation owners to add value, but it's only a just-so story you're making up by using words like technology and slavery in the same sentence.

There are two things that drive total factor productivity: returns on capital and returns on labor. You're limiting your argument to returns on labor productivity, when in fact the huge capital that was represented by slaves in the south was a major driver of economic progress during the period when slavery was legal. For reference:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_factor_productivity

You're confusing correlation with causation. When Bush tried to help out blacks and Hispanics with his minority homeownership program, he only helped to increase the dimensions of a housing bubble that eventually hurt everyone's prosperity when it popped. Because they were economically unprepared to own homes.

Wealth has nothing to do with homeownership, except as a correlation.

Did you even read the article? The author made a point of addressing the ways that blacks up through the present day have been sold predatory financial products and the degree to which this was pretty blatantly a product of racism. Blacks may not be ready for pay option ARMS, but frankly very few people would be. To know if black people were ready for low interest FHA loans like white people tend to get, we'd have to try giving them some and seeing if it worked.

 

[ncordless]

Slavery ended in this country 152 years ago. Nobody living in this country today was personally effected by slavery.

That's ridiculous.

The effects of slavery have not disappeared. Neither have the effects post-civil war segregation and racial discrimination.

Jesus Christ died 2000 years ago. Are the effects of that gone?

The Constitution was ratified just over 200 years ago. Does that have no effect.

Once something happens, the effects don't just go away because the people that actually lived through it died.

 

[ben236]

By that logic, why pay government debts that were incurred by past generations?

I guess you could potentially do that. If you don't plan on borrowing money ever again. Nobody is going to lend the US money if the country intentionally defaulted on it's loans. It has nothing to do with whatever your philosophical view on morality is, it has to do with the devastating real life consequences that would occur should the US choose to take that route.

 

[Cold Front]

That's ridiculous.

The effects of slavery have not disappeared. Neither have the effects post-civil war segregation and racial discrimination.

How would you know?

 

[Uchi Mata]

Why move to the ghetto when the ghetto can come to you? Just buy a $3,000 home in Detroit and pretend to live there while you pick up your check every other Wednesday.



Yeah, because it's not like people don't respond to monetary incentives.

Who said anything about sending checks? You might want to actually try reading what you're arguing against. There are good arguments to be made against reparations, I'm not sure why you're only making bad ones to tear down non-exsistent strawmen.