Can we please stop with the "X years to my blue belt"

[Balto]

Either the student isn't showing up to class or the teacher isn't communicating properly.

A third possibility that I see a lot is that the student shows up consistently but refuses to put in the additional effort on his end that is required to advance much beyond a blue belt level.

Just going through the motions won't do it, even if the instructor is communicating well. It's increasingly a two way street as you go up the ranks.

 

[Balto]

The problem with better teaching methods is that a large portion of the BJJ student customer base just doesn't want them. I mean they say on forums that they do, but when it comes down to actually doing them, they don't want to put the extra work in.

How many BJJ gyms decided to do a wrestling class? And how come it always fails within a few months? Because the wrestlers who get assigned to teach it use the same better teaching methods they are used to from wrestling. And then the students complain that it is too boring to drill basic movements repeatedly, too physically difficult to drill at a serious pace, etc.

I see this phenomenon daily at my gym. I run a class, and another black belt runs a different class.

My class I model off what I learned from watching how the best guys at Atos trained in a practice. There is no move of the day. It's just free time with a partner to drill your own game with whatever resistance is appropriate. I set the timer to three minute rounds and you just drill three minutes, your partner drills three minutes, back to you three minutes, etc. It's structured but open.

I will walk around and give individualized advice here and there as I see it. I expect the guys to keep up a good pace too. If they aren't sweating, I get on their case about it. Even light drilling should be at least the equivalent of a jog on the treadmill on something.

Afterwards it is rolling.

The other class is a more typical, move of the day type of class. It's not a random move as there is thought to the curriculum, but it's a couple different moves every day. There is a lot more watching and a lot less doing. People don't sweat during the drilling.

People who take my class get way better way faster. Blue belt within a year is totally attainable. It's called advanced class but I have several white belts who are regulars, and they are all on the fast track.

Attendance at the move of the day class is about 3x higher though. At the end of the day, the average gym member just wants that spoon fed, easy pace move of the day served up on a platter. And that's going to stretch out the timeline quite a bit, especially beyond blue belt.

The stark difference in attendance between the classes could also be explained by me being a huge asshole and hated personally, but I think I control for that by subbing in for the move of the day class every month or so. I just keep it move of the day for a consistent feel, and we get a lot of positive feedback on the instruction.

It just seems like, at the end of the day, most people just want to watch me tell them magic details like "put your foot here." If I tell them better advice like "you need to rep your best move consistently for half an hour," they are not happy about it and stop showing up.

I'm pretty sure the gym could not stay open if we only taught the better way.

 

[Crotalis]

A third possibility that I see a lot is that the student shows up consistently but refuses to put in the additional effort on his end that is required to advance much beyond a blue belt level.

I've seen this happen a lot. I've also seen a LOT of white belts with all the mat time in the world and enough skill to be Blue belts, but their attitudes suck. They either feel too entitled, think they're already black belts, etc so they get held back. No one wants to reward a arrogant white belt by feeding into their emotional immaturity. It can take a long time for some people to make that last mental adjustment.

Where I train I've also seen white belts get held back a little longer simply for being bad training partners. My coach expects Blue belts to be able to handle themselves well in most situations. This could mean rolling well against a good college wrestler who showed up randomly one day (you don't have to beat the guy - just show that you know what to do and how not to get totally owned), or it could mean understanding how to roll with different people. We had two guys stuck at white forever because one guy severely injured half the gym and was single handedly responsible for people not showing at certain class times, and the other because even after two years he was still showing up to treat EVERY roll like it was a literal death match. He was good at not injuring people, but when you're going just as hard against a 90pound girl with 6 months of training as you do against a 6' 200 pound competition purple belt .... you have issues son.

They've both been straightened out, but yeah, just another reason someone could be held at a lower belt level for longer.

 

[Calibur]

A third possibility that I see a lot is that the student shows up consistently but refuses to put in the additional effort on his end that is required to advance much beyond a blue belt level.

Just going through the motions won't do it, even if the instructor is communicating well. It's increasingly a two way street as you go up the ranks.

I still say that's a form of miscommunication. The teacher could be saying " I want to promote you because you're doing well but I feel like you are going 50 percent. I need to see more effort so from now on only roll with such and such person and don't fight from your guard, etc. "

The teacher needs to lay out clear rules for what they want and if they don't get it they need to say something.

That said I saw this exact scenario play out with an experienced bjjer and despite clearly being told he needed to put in more effort he complained for about a year and finally switched teachers to someone who didn't require he spar at all.

At least the communication was there and I know the breakdown was mostly on the student tho.

 

[Balto]

I've seen this happen a lot.

Yeah I was that way for a while. Just a blue belt who thought I knew more than my coach and thus didn't really take his advice to heart.

It took me 11 years to black belt, but if I had gotten wiser earlier, it easily could have been 8 years. But I guess I needed to stagnate for a few years to get it through my head.

 

[Balto]

I still say that's a form of miscommunication. The teacher could be saying " I want to promote you because you're doing well but I feel like you are going 50 percent. I need to see more effort so from now on only roll with such and such person and don't fight from your guard, etc. "

The teacher needs to lay out clear rules for what they want and if they don't get it they need to say something.

That said I saw this exact scenario play out with an experienced bjjer and despite clearly being told he needed to put in more effort he complained for about a year and finally switched teachers to someone who didn't require he spar at all.

At least the communication was there and I know the breakdown was mostly on the student tho.

Yeah I'm assuming the instructor does communicate the expectation. Otherwise it is on the instructor.

But also as you said, I know that I personally tell people this sort of stuff all the time. And a good many of them just refuse to change.

I try to be patient giving them time to change though. I needed time myself. My instructor was also patient. So I try not to get too frustrated or judge harshly.

 

[Forceof1]

How long have you been training? Interested in your perspective

I've been in martial arts for 30+ years. I first started doing BJJ in 1999, but had a few years off due to grad school, kids, etc.

I started training BJJ again in 2010 seriously and am a 4 stripe purple belt.

 

[Was at Pride GP 2000]

I think the bigger point that was being made is that a lot of people are low level belts for multiple years and that should not be happening. Either the student isn't showing up to class or the teacher isn't communicating properly.

That's not being butt hurt. That's addressing a real problem that shouldn't exist in modern bjj.

Don't stop with just bjj. Why do you think gym memberships require one year commitment. Place is packed in January. Ghost town by march. People don't want to put in the work.

 

[Was at Pride GP 2000]

I've been in martial arts for 30+ years. I first started doing BJJ in 1999, but had a few years off due to grad school, kids, etc.

I started training BJJ again in 2010 seriously and am a 4 stripe purple belt.

I understand your perspective. I spent a lot of time with white belts and blue belts being the mentor. Over the last 10 years the mentality has changed a lot. I attribute a lot of this to social media where every one has an opinion and they all think it's the most important thing to let people know what they think and being mean has become the standard. Forums like this are an avenue for these opinions to be heard and I take them with a grain of salt as I also like to post my opinions here.

My recommendation is the same when new students come in and start trying to tell me this or that. Take a long deep breath, then go train

 

[Balto]

Don't stop with just bjj. Why do you think gym memberships require one year commitment. Place is packed in January. Ghost town by march. People don't want to put in the work.

There is a regular gym in the front part of where we train. We were laughing yesterday that we're about to get the majority of sign ups next week.

There's a core group of maybe half a dozen kids I see in there lifting consistently. They are there even on weekend nights and stuff. No shock that they all look pretty big and strong. That's probably because they are in there lifting while other kids are out drinking and stuff.

It's not exactly a mystery. But most kids would rather be out drinking. So they do that instead and get different results.

I have guys in BJJ tell me that they want to take it to the next level. I suggest that they start competing some. That's probably the most consistent, proven way to up your game for a bunch of reasons.

"Nah, competing isn't for me. It's just not for me."

"Okay. You realize that you're willingly giving up one of the most powerful tools you have to accelerate your development. But we can just take that you don't compete as a given and try to work around that.

Obviously you are busy with work and other commitments. Rather than taking your X times a week training schedule and turning it into 2X which will be extremely difficult, how about just coming X times per week like you already do but doing some additional study and analysis outside of class? That way you can plan things out, analyze video, etc. during downtime at work, and you can use your X mat time just for the physical stuff that you can't do anywhere else."

"Nah, I already have a job. I don't want training to feel like a second one. I don't want to be doing homework for class. I just want to show up."

"Okay. Well how about you just show up, but instead of Move of the Day, you're advanced enough you can switch to Move of the Month. We'll just agree on something you need to work on, and then you can just drill that for a whole month every time it is your turn to drill."

"Okay sounds great!"

Then after like two classes in, I'm showing Move of the Day to someone else. And lo and behold, Move of the Month guy stops to come over and sit and watch.

"Hey Move of the Month guy, I thought we agreed to put you on Move of the Month. You should go practice that."

"Yeah but you were showing something cool to other people. I want to see too. I don't want to miss out on anything!"

I just tell myself sometimes it takes time with people. Maybe they'll come around. Maybe they won't.

 

[Uchi Mata]

I think the bigger point that was being made is that a lot of people are low level belts for multiple years and that should not be happening. Either the student isn't showing up to class or the teacher isn't communicating properly.

That's not being butt hurt. That's addressing a real problem that shouldn't exist in modern bjj.

BJJ at 99% of gyms is not structured in such a way as to help people to continue to improve past mid blue/early purple or so. Reason being, the 'move of the day' class structure is not amenable to improvement once you've basically mastered the basics of the curriculum being taught. At around purple you know most of the moves you'll ever use, the process now needs to become refining and connecting the techniques you already know into a coherent whole and there's just no set process for doing that most places. Class is great, but when you get to a point where you just need to rep your A game and positional spar it against other good guys at fairly high intensity with detailed feedback from your coach on small mistakes you're making (basically what I think you need to keep getting better past purple) you're out of luck. Big competition gyms do this in competitions classes, but most recreational places have no time allotted for this process to happen. It's a big part of why I think you do see good lower belts come from a wide variety of gyms but top level brown and black belts mostly coming from the same small group of elite competition teams.

 

[FatherSauce]

Some good stuff in here. I've always been interested in how bjj is taught and that's grown as I've ranked up. I've always been the one to put in a bunch of study time because my actual training time is limited. That's been helpful up til now. But as a newer purple I'm hitting real hard on the realization that no move or quick fix is going to make me enough better. I fail to execute because my "A" game isn't A enough. My coaches can still whip me because their B and C (and possibly further down the alphabet) are better and more refined than my best.

All this leads me to the thought that I will only get better in the way I want through more drilling and positional sparring.

 

[Minnja]

Years mean jack shit, Mat time is what it should be counted.

This.

I always kind of struggle to answer when someone asks me how long I've been training. Technically calendar years wise I was a white belt for like 4 years. But in reality my training was very inconsistent, there were periods where I was training for about 2x a week and totaled 2-3 hours. There were many months and even a year or two thrown in those 4 years where I didn't train at all. In that 3 or so year timeframe I got 1 stripe. When I was at a point in my life where I could train consistently I was training 3x/4x a week and totaling about 5-6 hours a week and sometimes more when it got close to a competition. In slightly less than a year of actual consistent training (and about 4 competitions) I was able to get my blue belt. I believe if I trained consistently I would have likely gotten to blue after about 1.5 years but because of the inconsistencies; in calendar years it looks like it took me forever.

 

[kjg1672]

Great thread and great posts from Balto and Uchi Mata, two guys who are probably too intelligent to be posting on Sherdog

Uchi Mata's post in particular interests me because he's posted similar thoughts before, and I think about it a lot. That is, the idea that after a number of years you kind of outgrow your curriculum. This applies to me because, as a purple belt, I know that if I'm ever really going to improve I probably have to adhere to the philosophy of "taking ownership" of my training. I just haven't really figured out how to do this. I think I would have to find two or three partners whom I trust and drill with them "a move of the month" during open mats or during regular sparring time after class.

 

[Ryoto Machida]

I got my blue in under a year, but I competed my ass off and won medals. Still winning medals at blue so I figure it's justified. Competing holds a lot of weight with my coach, so those who compete and succeed get promoted fasted. Makes sense to me.

 

[NateTx4112]

As one of those black belts that got the "wow 7 1/2 years is quick" I rolled my eyes at that. I put in consistent 3 times a week of training minimum the vast majority of my time training with many periods being 5 days a week if not 6. Went to every seminar I could find in DFW for a few years, competed multiple times a year (with mild success at best) but just kept showing up. I started helping with classes at 4 stripe blue and taught a beginners class for about a year as well.

All that being said the "well at my school we have to shoulder roll thru lava needles with 300 lb black belts throwing heel hooks in the gi while getting spat on by zombies before you get a blue belt at my school" is just people wanting to puff up their chest and be proud of where they train. Simply a dick measuring contest that no-one actually asked if they wanted to compete in. Cool I'm glad you think your e-dick is the best but no one else gives a shit. And no your blue belt at your school isn't ANY more special than pretty much any school in the world. At my school we have guys who medaled/won worlds at blue belt. We also have a guy who I scratch my head at and think...man coach gave this guy a blue belt? But he knows the moves, he just struggles with applying them. His purple is a LONG way off but he's consistently training 4 days a week for 2 years. To sum it up, no one gives a shit how long you took to get your blue belt, or what you think a blue belt really is. Just shut up and train.

***off topic/side note*** I've been a black belt 2 weeks now and all of the sudden I'm getting more guys coming to me with technique questions and teaching more after rolls/after class and working on specific things than ever before. I was a 4 stripe brown for well over a year, but now some of these guys are seeing "Hey he REALLY knows jiu jitsu since he's a black belt". Cracks me up as I am the same exact grappler I was 2 weeks ago with maybe a minor detail or two I've worked on recently on one of my "sloth" tozi passes I use/have been working on for 2 years now.

 

[jr jr]

A white belt asked me one day how long would he need to work on his knee slice. I told him work it for 8 months and you should be proficient. Now he is a blue belt with a great knee slice and he finally told me that he though I was crazy when I told him that. I have stuff I have been working for years. Grappling is funny.

 

[Balto]

***off topic/side note*** I've been a black belt 2 weeks now and all of the sudden I'm getting more guys coming to me with technique questions and teaching more after rolls/after class and working on specific things than ever before. I was a 4 stripe brown for well over a year, but now some of these guys are seeing "Hey he REALLY knows jiu jitsu since he's a black belt".

You've got the magic power now, my friend.

 

[sb413197]

I still say that's a form of miscommunication. The teacher could be saying " I want to promote you because you're doing well but I feel like you are going 50 percent. I need to see more effort so from now on only roll with such and such person and don't fight from your guard, etc. "

The teacher needs to lay out clear rules for what they want and if they don't get it they need to say something.

That said I saw this exact scenario play out with an experienced bjjer and despite clearly being told he needed to put in more effort he complained for about a year and finally switched teachers to someone who didn't require he spar at all.

At least the communication was there and I know the breakdown was mostly on the student tho.

That isn't the first time I've read about this phenomenon on Sherdog (guys not rolling as hard as they are supposed to) but I've never seen anything like this in person, and don't comprehend how it is possible. Why would someone not put out enough energy in training - do people not mind getting smashed and subbed?? It's more energy consuming to try to retain guard or just sit in on top while your opponent attacks you from guard, than it is to be more active and sweep/pass and then rest in a dominant position. Even if you are tired or conserving energy and only using efficient movement, it still makes more sense to be active - better to be active up front than play catch-up later. It just doesn't make any sense to me from any perspective - except maybe if you already have mount or whatever - but even there if you aren't active you're gonna burn more energy because your partner will be the one initiating.

I've always seen the opposite - some people roll too rough and not caring for their training partners' health. (different from too hard though - I feel there's no such thing as rolling too "hard" unless you're just brutalizing your training partner or something)

 

[BJJ_Rage]

Great thread and great posts from Balto and Uchi Mata, two guys who are probably too intelligent to be posting on Sherdog

Uchi Mata's post in particular interests me because he's posted similar thoughts before, and I think about it a lot. That is, the idea that after a number of years you kind of outgrow your curriculum. This applies to me because, as a purple belt, I know that if I'm ever really going to improve I probably have to adhere to the philosophy of "taking ownership" of my training. I just haven't really figured out how to do this. I think I would have to find two or three partners whom I trust and drill with them "a move of the month" during open mats or during regular sparring time after class.

as a purple, you should take ownership of your training... it really is quite simple, reaserch online whatever you are into, drill with your partner and thats it. Why would you be subjected to what your instructor teaching at that time? this doesnt mean you shouldnt respect what he does in class of course though.