Can Someone With Boxing Knowledge Break Down Diaz/Noons From A Technical Standpoint?

Discussion in 'Boxing Discussion' started by Peteyandjia, Oct 12, 2010.

  1. Peteyandjia

    Peteyandjia Thanks Mirko. Staff Member Forum Administrator

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2007
    Messages:
    76,447
    Likes Received:
    95,619
    Location:
    Mountain Bar
    The other thread was a huge disappointment.

    It instantly devolved into an attack on Noons and how 'he isn't a real boxer'.

    I expected more from you Boxing guys.

    I respect Boxing, and I admit I don't know as much about it as I do BJJ for example.

    So do any of you guys know the game? Can you explain to me why the fight played out the way it did, from a technical standpoint? I'm not looking for an attack on Noons' boxing record. I want to understand the striking. Why did Diaz's unorthodox style work so well? Why did Noons have so much more success than most people against Diaz?

    It was a great fight, basically a draw imo, and the lack of a breakdown from an honest and intelligent Boxing expert disturbs me.

    Put the Boxing vs. MMA bullshit aside for a moment and just break down the striking in the fight, someone.
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2010
  2. Gambolls

    Gambolls Yellow Belt

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2009
    Messages:
    215
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Washingtonville, NY
    I would like to see this as well.
     
  3. Iron Mang

    Iron Mang White Belt

    Joined:
    May 14, 2010
    Messages:
    70
    Likes Received:
    0
    The reason why Nick beat down KJ boxing is because he was throwing the straighter punches and keeping his jab in Noons' face. All KJ was doing was loading up and throwing looping shots, telegraphing every punch. Whenever someone loops punches, the guy throwing the straight shots will land first. Also, the guy who establishes his jab will dictate the pace of the fight. The jab is the most important punch in boxing period. It sets up opening and combination's. The only good punches KJ threw were body shots. He couldn't throw a straight shot for shit!
     
  4. Peteyandjia

    Peteyandjia Thanks Mirko. Staff Member Forum Administrator

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2007
    Messages:
    76,447
    Likes Received:
    95,619
    Location:
    Mountain Bar
    Aren't looping punches a way to deal with a significant reach disadvantage though? Could Noons really have gotten into a straight-punches contest with Diaz, wouldn't he have fared worse?
     
  5. Dragonstyle915

    Dragonstyle915 Brown Belt

    Joined:
    May 7, 2008
    Messages:
    2,736
    Likes Received:
    2
    Location:
    El Paso
    It's very simple. Diaz has longer arms and he's bigger so he used his distance and established it. One the guy with the reach does that the other boxer has to find the inside.

    And thats what MMA is missing, the inside boxing. In Boxing guys dont "dirty" box. They get in close use their shoulders to fend off short range shots, land short hooks to the body and and if you watch enough inside fighting in Boxing you will sometimes see guys like Rhynos with their gloves up touching each other.

    In MMA you dont see inside Boxing, which completely makes MMA "boxing" a very small part of the Sweet Science.

    But anyway, Noons had to work the inside which in MMA you can go for Muay Thai knees, take downs, or hold a guy without being told to let go. And I think thats what hurt Noons in this fight over all.

    I do believe with 10 oz gloves Noon's style would work better and he'd have the first 2 or 3 rounds to read Nick Diaz's pattern. Diaz wont be able to hold his halnds out like that with those gloves, his arms with get heavy by round 4 and it would leave him open to the inside. A Boxer can come in with the jab once inside and Diaz stance leave shim open to short shots on the inside.
     
  6. Iron Mang

    Iron Mang White Belt

    Joined:
    May 14, 2010
    Messages:
    70
    Likes Received:
    0
    No, looping your punches the way Noons was, he was only looking for a home run. He could have used his jab and head movement to get inside the reach of Diaz and hook to the body than to the head. He could have done well with a jab, right uppercut too. Maybe even lean left as Diaz jabbed and countered with a right hook. It's just tough to do in MMA because if Noons did start to get inside, Diaz would start clinching or going for takedowns.
     
  7. Dragonstyle915

    Dragonstyle915 Brown Belt

    Joined:
    May 7, 2008
    Messages:
    2,736
    Likes Received:
    2
    Location:
    El Paso
    An example of Boxers who were great on the inside and always had to work the inside up close in the phonebooth- Cesar Chavez. You of course had guys who could fight on the inside or outside and thats Hagler.

    The Klitchsko brothers are good outside fighters. They cant fight on the inside which is why they use their jab to keep guys at a distance and hang on to their opponents til the ref breaks them up...
     
  8. jlagman

    jlagman Duty Belt

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2006
    Messages:
    9,769
    Likes Received:
    1,997
    Location:
    The Range
    Noons looked worse this time around, instead of weaving his way into the inside like in their previous fight, he tried walking down Diaz to score those body punches. Nick Diaz isn't the prettiest technician, but he understands distance and knows how to fight tall and his arm punches let him get off first and throw with high frequency. This time around, whenever Noons got on the inside, it was because Diaz let him in and when Diaz decided to stay at range (with stop hands, by posting up, or backing out) there was little Noons could do about it.
     
  9. Crazy Canuck

    Crazy Canuck Purple Belt

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2007
    Messages:
    1,584
    Likes Received:
    2
    Location:
    canada
    Diaz attempts to replicate a swarmer or volume style of boxing. Other successful boxers that mirror Diaz's style include Margarito and to a lesser extent Paul Williams. Generally these fighters do not have one shot knockout power and rely on cumulative damage. Therefore, they have to consistently go to the body as well as the head to wear down their opponents.

    The most common deficiencies of this style are a lack of a notable jab, poor footwork, poor head movement and poor defense on the whole. It also explains why fighters that adopt this style usually have a hell of a chin. Guys that exploit this power just have to circle out away from their power hand and throw fast, straight punches. Against Mosley, Margarito was thoroughly beaten to the punch and could never get his punches off.

    Diaz, just like his style usually entails, has no hand speed, no foot movement and no defense. For most of the fight his chin was just hanging out there ready to be hit. The problem with Noons is he wasn't good enough to fully take advantage of this. Any striker Diaz faces with decent boxing ability can give him fits. They just have to be light on their feet and throw down the pipe.

    Of course the next question that follows is what about Shamrock and Smith. Shamrock has mediocre hands and stood stoic most of the fight. Against styles like Diaz gettting on your horse is what you have to do. Smith has no defense to speak of, particularly to the body. He was an excellent matchup to Diaz.

    Cliffs:
    Diaz swarms and relies on cumulative damage
    He has poor footwork, hand speed and defense thus susceptible to straight counters
    Noons fired straight punches when successful
    Anyone with decent hands and footwork will give Diaz fits
     
  10. Dragonstyle915

    Dragonstyle915 Brown Belt

    Joined:
    May 7, 2008
    Messages:
    2,736
    Likes Received:
    2
    Location:
    El Paso
    There just isnt an inside game, as far as Boxing, in MMA and thats a big part of the Sweet Science. The "dirty Boxing" and muay thai that the do will never allow them to have an inside Boxing game, which is why in MAM you only get a small fraction of true Boxing.

    A guy like Mickey Ward liked to get in close and land that hook to the body. Same for Chavez. That style doesnt exist in MMA.

    Thats why I say if it snot M of Q then its not Boxing. The "Boxing" in MMA is missing way too many elements that make Boxing- Boxing.
     
  11. Iron Mang

    Iron Mang White Belt

    Joined:
    May 14, 2010
    Messages:
    70
    Likes Received:
    0
    The difference with P-Dub and Margarito is that they are pressure fighters. Diaz was backing up almost the entire fight, keeping Noons at bay with his jab.
     
  12. jlagman

    jlagman Duty Belt

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2006
    Messages:
    9,769
    Likes Received:
    1,997
    Location:
    The Range
    An overhand can line up well against a taller fighter's chin, but looping punches don't magically extend someone's reach.
     
  13. McMurder

    McMurder Blue Belt

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2010
    Messages:
    548
    Likes Received:
    0
    Being a boxing fan I enjoyed Noons Diaz 2, it is some of the better boxing I have seen in a mma fight. It's really nice to see guys go to the body like that, I think a big part of Noons' loss is that he overestimates his own ability in there, he was constantly switching from orthodox to southpaw and believed he could get away with throwing those big shots without Diaz making him pay for it.

    Another thing I believe is that you can't really have both a professional Boxing and MMA career and expect to fulfill your potential in both sports. Guys like Edgar,Noons,Diaz,Silva, that Canadian guy whose name escapes me at the moment,etc. are really forcing these guys to step up their game which is good for the sport overall. Some of these guys do have some talent in the boxing department, but you can't really expect them to be Leonard like out there in MIXED martial arts. Boxing is only one aspect of the game.

    And respect to both of them for taking Boxing seriously, Diaz choosing to spar with Ward really impressed me.
     
  14. Peteyandjia

    Peteyandjia Thanks Mirko. Staff Member Forum Administrator

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2007
    Messages:
    76,447
    Likes Received:
    95,619
    Location:
    Mountain Bar
    This thread is already getting a lot of awesome responses, thanks guys.

    I thought the jab wasn't really an effective tool if you have a significant reach disadvantage?
     
  15. Peteyandjia

    Peteyandjia Thanks Mirko. Staff Member Forum Administrator

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2007
    Messages:
    76,447
    Likes Received:
    95,619
    Location:
    Mountain Bar
    Understood, I was taking it as a given that people who saw the fight also saw that Noons was winging those looping punches off of his tippey-toes, diving in to close the distance.

    Something that Chris Lytle also likes to do, I love watching boxers do that.

    I am definitely an MMA fan who welcomes more and more Boxing with open arms. I find it fascinating to watch.
     
  16. jlagman

    jlagman Duty Belt

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2006
    Messages:
    9,769
    Likes Received:
    1,997
    Location:
    The Range
    I admire Noons determination in attempting body shots, but you have to admit, he did it all wrong this time around. You can't just walk someone down in a straight line when they have a superior reach advantage, you've got to make the other guy miss and steadily close the distance, which is what Noons did the first time around and failed to do the other night.

    I agree that the kind of shoulder-to-shoulder in-fighting displayed under Queensbury rules may not ever become prevalent in MMA due to wrestling and strikes from a clinch, but I do think that getting in close and landing a body punch or two can be a very viable strategy and I at least, admire Noons' tenacity in trying to implement that strategy.
     
  17. dg43088

    dg43088 Guest

    Diaz was able to use his jab and cross pretty well. Noons disappointed me a bit because he was never able to translate his effective body punching from the earlier rounds into a good head attack later on and I do believe that if Noons didn't break his hand he wouldn't turned 1 dimensional and just loaded up lookin to end the night with 1 punch. I know Diaz's style is ugly but the way he used his reach advantage textbook, keep the jab in the other guy's face and follow that wit the cross down the middle. It was ugly to watch but very effective for Diaz.
     
  18. Crazy Canuck

    Crazy Canuck Purple Belt

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2007
    Messages:
    1,584
    Likes Received:
    2
    Location:
    canada
    In general Diaz does fight truer to the style of Margarito. But yeah he was complacent a little in this fight. Wasn't much of a jab though.
     
  19. FirstScratch

    FirstScratch Purple Belt

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2006
    Messages:
    1,558
    Likes Received:
    1
    KJ and strikeforce created this facade that KJ is some sort of great pro boxer that's on the verge of becoming a world champion. We're not supposed to point out the obvious? These threads devolve because some people are unwilling to accept the truth concerning KJ's boxing career and abilities. From a technical standpoint, the lack of head movement, wide shitty footwork, lack of angles, poor defensive technique, constantly switching stances, reaching and looping punches, telegraphing. It all points to weak fundamentals. It's the reason why KJ has been matched against jouneyman club fighters and has no wins against a legitimate opponent.
     
  20. jlagman

    jlagman Duty Belt

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2006
    Messages:
    9,769
    Likes Received:
    1,997
    Location:
    The Range
    There aren't many boxers who actually do that because it's much riskier than it seems; when you're off the ground, you're off balance, and covering a long distance by leaping forward is a telegraphed technique and often very easy to counter. Noons was reaching (literally) for something that wasn't there.
     

Share This Page

  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.