Can someone please explain Jon Jones' PED history/infractions?

[west42]

Next time I get pulled over while drinking Im telling the cop my gatorade was tainted with vodka. Seems legit.

 

[dim_]

I thought first time he popped was because of tainted supplements and dick pills

Because the first time he tested positive for two drugs used in post cycle therapy and nobody, included USADA actually believes the dick pill story.

He received the absolute maximum penalty for those substances, a one year suspension

and then the other time was when picograms were found.

Can someone explain why he is vehemently treated like a drug cheat, honestly just curious? Am I missing something?

The second time he tested positive for Turinabol metabolites (or another similar chlorinated steroid)

At some point, he has taken (either intentionally or non-intentionally) turinabol. No supplement was ever found.

He received a 45 month suspension with 30 months of it tolled for turning snitch...



its really pretty straightforward

 

[dim_]

The deviation of Jones' T/E ratio is not hearsay or supposition, it's a red flag and would've called for isotope testing, but USADA was not in effect at that time.

not sure GC/IRMS would have been of any benefit at all. Its primarily used to detect the use of exogenous testosterone.

If your test levels are that of an 80 year old women, its very unlikely that youve been using exogenous test

 

[Iron Nick]

Why is MMA not as reliant on athleticism tho? You need many of those characteristics soccer players have and maybe even more to some degree.

I mean sure if your argument involves around actual talent in each sport respectively, then yeah, soccer easily has more athletic players by default. But in terms of required gifts? Nah, I cannot agree with this. Sure there are some shallow divisions in MMA like the heavy division where everyone is out of shape and old as hell but it's a small subset of MMA as a whole.

In the end of the day it's all opinionated. And in fact they did a study on this with experts in the sport industry. They listed Boxing as number 1. MMA as number 6 and soccer at number 10.

https://www.espn.com/espn/page2/sportSkills

First of all: i appreciate the detailled answer as well that you're discussing with me at all, since many people are stubborn on this topic and immediately resort to calling names.
But back to the topic:
Now i don't know how they've come up with these ratings, but first of all: let me break down for you, which factors i consider most important when talking about areas that benefit the most from PED-use:

• Endurance
• Strength
• Power
• Speed
• Agility

Now i colored agility, speed and power all the same, since they all depend on how fast you (or a part of your body) can move, so basically those three points are:

• Endurance
• Strength
• Explosivity

Now let's compare the ratings from ESPN of MMA to those of soccer:
Endurance: 5.00 / 7.75 Difference: 2.75
Strength: 5.88 / 4.50 Difference: 1.38
Explosivity*: 6.71 / 6.87 Difference: 0.16

So on average and based on ESPN data, soccer has a an average rating of 6.373, while MMA has an average rating of 5.863.

*(to calculate the value for explosivity, i've added the values of power, speed and agility together and divided them by three)
If we do however leave agility out, for example because someone says "it's purely motoric and doesn't have anything to do with quick, explosive movements!" then the values are 7.06 / 6.44
If we decide that - for whatever reason - agility wasn't something that is largely dependant on explosivity and anaerobic endurance and left that out, then soccer would have an average rating of 6.23, while MMA would have an average rating of 5.98.

So based on what we see here, soccer is more physically demanding than MMA, but let's also take into account, that the values for soccer are not just higher when we take averages, but also that soccer has areas/values where it's extremely high, and while it's comparably "easy" or common to get/be good at many things, getting elite in a certain area requires amounts of work/dedication that are not linear to the progress anymore. (Meaning: If you're already really good, you don't just become elite by putting a bit more work/dedication in, but by putting high amounts of effort into something.)

For MMA, the highest value we're talking about is power, which is listed at 7.75, while nothing that has anything to do with athleticism surpasses 6.50.
For soccer however, endurance stands at 7.75, speed at 7.25 and agility at 8.25.

So in conclusion: if we're talking about the aspects of athleticism that involve endurance, explosivity and strength, then soccer scores higher than MMA and if it wasn't for power being a single category (that despite all that sports-science has told us, has according to ESPN nothing to do with explosivity) then there would not be a single area besides strength, where MMA doesn't rank exactly very high at 5.88 either, where MMA surpasses soccer and needs insane athletic capabilities anyway.

(..and just to be clear here, i am not trying to bash MMA in any way here!)

Well people do steroids in secrecy for the most obvious reasons. What about Pro Bodybuilders? 99.9% of those guys do steroids but we cannot prove it. (By 99.9% I mean 100%).

Here's what we know and probably are true: MMA users in the past have been using roids. People were getting popped for roids. People are still getting pop for roids under USADA. Athletes all around the world in many different sports are all using PEDS. A huge majority of people in the Olympics are using PEDS. All those powerlifters in the Olymipics are using PEDS. The USADA are testing olymipic atheletes and people still passing tests.

So my question to you is why wouldn't people in MMA use drugs like everyone else across all sports? Performance is everything. There are millions of dollars on the line here. My second question to you would be: Do you think Jon Jones used PEDS intentionally? If the answer is yes : Why would one of the greatest fighters ever who has no equal at LHW still continue to use PEDS? If the answer is no because you believe he's clean then you might be naive.

Aren't pro bodybuilders untested? I do agree with you though, haha!

As for the MMA fighters on PEDs: yes, they have done so, but consider the fact that during a time when testing was less strict there have been way more "athletic freaks" due to extremer drugs being available to use, so the probability that anyone who chose this sport back then started to do them (just to be level with his opponents) was higher as well.
In today's day and age, fighters still test positive, but it's apparent that while the eye-test isn't everything, there are less fighters with hulk-esque physics, as well as there are way less fighters who go at each other full blast, yet don't gas out.
Now you could potentially say that people are better at passing tests and yes, some of them most likely are, but overall, the steep decrease of "freaks" is due to the sport being cleaner overall and i think we can agree on that, right man?

Regarding the olympic athletes: i can see why you (and other people) are skeptic towards them since they are indeed the strongest/fastest/etc. athletes in disciplines where tactics rarely and technique sometimes plays a part. I would not count out however, that there have been clean winners at some olympic events, since an average person even with all PEDs in the world would not come close to a 10sek. time at the 100 metres (for example).
When looking at MMA again though, i fail to see how every top fighter in the UFC displays athletic features that are impossible for the average guy (with the right training and nutrition) to replicate.
That is of course not to say that PEDs don't help you in MMA, because they do! i just don't think they're necessary to compete in the UFC, at least not generally.
As for reasons to not use PEDs: the risk of being caught is still there and there's also people who won't do it for moral reasons, despite being very ambitious about their goals in sports.

As for Jon Jones: i don't have any concrete proof that he does take PEDs at the moment, but when looking at his career, i can see why one would suspect him still do so.
Why he could potentially do that? Because it might give him an advantage and/or he might be too insecure about himself to compete clean

Okay? That's a culturally issue and a different topic.

Well, kind of, but yeah, it's not really the topic, you're right.


Oh, and before i forget it: the fact that boxing and basketball score higher in hand-eye-coordination than soccer, is quite frankly a joke. Want to know why?
Binocular vision is one of the most crucial things when it comes to judging the distance and velocity of objects, so by default, you need very good hand-eye coordination in basketball and an even higher one in soccer, since the ball moves and arrives way faster in soccer.
In MMA (although MMA is not boxing of course) we've had Michael Bisping capture gold in the UFC with literally one intact eye, which means that he had no binocular vision at all.

Now i guess you can say "you don't use your hands in soccer!" but why on earth would you go on then and judge the hand-eye-coordination but not hand-foot-coordination?
(Generally though, somebody who is good at one, is also good at the other)

 

[TheLastEmperorReurns]

Still not a concrete answer, the two infractions were explained by dick pills and tainted supplements. I'm looking for an answer to why he is labeled a drug cheat despite these reasons

the dick pill excuse was not accepted and he wasn’t excused from the drug test failure by the commissions no matter how hard he propagates to the contrary.

there’s also the situation where a drug test showed him to have suspiciously low T:E levels which wasn’t reported much by the media

 

[Towerworld]

Jones tested positive first for clomiphene then TBOL, was suspended but the sentence was reduced because it was ruled as unintentional despite there being 0 evidence of supplement contamination.
Jones continues to test positive for TBOL every other month and he is allowed to fight because “pulsing” despite there being 0 evidence of the existence of said phenomena with the substance mentioned.

Glad I can be of assistance.

 

[Roljo]

USADA and/or independent third parties have never said that Jon Jones took anything intentionally. If you call him a cheater, beware that this is your (biased) opinion and not supported by experts

First USADA adverse result:

"On the evidence before the Panel, the Applicant is not a drug cheat. He did not know that the tablet he took contained prohibited substances or that those substances had the capacity to enhance sporting performance. However by his imprudent use of what he pungently referred to as a "dick pill" he has not only lost a year of his career but an estimated nine million dollars. This outcome which he admits to be a wake-up call for him should serve as a warning to all others who participate in the same sport. "

Second adverse result:


“The independent arbitrator found that Jon Jones was not intentionally cheating in this case, and while we thought 18-months was the appropriate sanction given the other circumstances of the case, we respect the arbitrator’s decision and believe that justice was served,” USADA CEO Travis T. Tygart said in a statement.

And now the last issue regarding long-term metabolites

After examining the scientific literature on this substance and the extensive testing history on Jones and consulting with leading scientific experts, USADA has concluded that the extremely low level of DHCMT in Mr. Jones’ December 9, 2018 sample is consistent with residual amounts from his prior exposure for which he was previously sanctioned.
USADA has also concluded that consistent with the prior finding by the independent arbitrator, at these extremely low levels, Jones obtained no performance enhancement from this level. The level reported was at approximately 60 pg/mL and there was no parent drug or other metabolites of the drug in his sample. As a result of these findings, USADA has determined that Mr. Jones is not facing a violation per the UFC Anti-Doping Policy.

This. Officially Jones has never cheated ! For real he probably has like 95% of fighters in the ufc and most of his opponents but sherdog haters are really hypocritical when differentiating Jones from other fighters that fight in the ufc.

 

[mahavishnunj]

Still not a concrete answer, the two infractions were explained by dick pills and tainted supplements. I'm looking for an answer to why he is labeled a drug cheat despite these reasons

not bad, but this has been done many times before

 

[Only Here for Attachments]

yeah.

it couldn't possibly be that he's been caught cheating at least 3 times. no, no. just the butthurt.

Clomiphene/Letrozole - ruled unintentional ingestion and no benefits gained
Turinabol - ruled unintentional ingestion and no benefits gained

 

[Pierced7681]

Good post, but clomiphene and letrozole aren’t masking agents and aren’t used as such.

Also his dick pill excuse had some shaaaady stuff, too. He got the pill from his teammate (you know how it goes.. you go out with your teammate, party, share some dick pills.. the usual), who had ordered the dick pills from a totally legit and legal webshop. Said teammate provided the invoice for those dick pills, but it was proven that it wasn’t the right order so it couldn’t have been the right invoice.

Okay, no biggie, he had other invoices up in his sleeve! You get an invoice, you get an invoice, everybody gets an invoice! On this invoice, however, there was more than just ”dick pills”. It also contained an order for clomiphene - a substance banned by WADA and available only with a prescription. Like from a real doctor.

So if Jon really just took the dick pill(s) and not the banned substance... Why did they try to hide the fact that he/they also ordered clomiphene, that is used often as a post steroid cycle substance? Post cycle stuff that you can read everything about all that from the internets. Anyway..

I guess we all can have our own opinions about what happened and if Jones is a cheat.

Lesnar was caught for the same stuff as Jones, clomiphene. Doesn’t take a genius to figure out why.

https://roidvisor.com/brock-lesnar-got-off-steroids-time-ufc-200-got-caught-using-pct-drug-clomid/

 

[kflo]

The deviation of Jones' T/E ratio is not hearsay or supposition, it's a red flag and would've called for isotope testing, but USADA was not in effect at that time.


No, it's a teammate who popped for the same substance, whose situation sets future precedent (relevant further down in the post).


Jones received the maximum punishment possible as a first time offender for those substances, and the fact that the friend who purchased the dick pill also purchased clomiphene in the same order can't be dismissed so easily. You seem to think that the arbitration hearing operates the same as a court of law, but it doesn't.


It's precedent. Mir tested positive for turinabol, was a first time offender, had no tainted supplements, and received two years. Jones tested positive for turinabol, was a second time offender, had no tainted supplements, and I correctly predicted a four year suspension (it was only reduced because Jones snitched).


No, he said that he was "off steroids", which is much different than saying he "wasn't on steroids"; you can't be "off steroids" unless you were previously on steroids. You're undermining your argument by changing the specifics of my post.


Of which Jones could provide no tainted supplement to account for the positive test, which again, is evidence of his guilt.


Do you think I wrote that post in response to this one? Check the date. It's a timeline of Jones' entire case, not just the violations.


See above regarding Jones providing no tainted supplement; and it actually is an USADA violation to be taking a non-disclosed supplement.


No, it's showing a serious flaw in USADA's drug testing program, especially when they issue retroactive suspensions.


Which no science can support. In fact the only science on the substance (M3 metabolite) says that it has a detection window of 50 days, not the years that USADA/Jones' have been alleging.

there is no valid science on the detection window. don't try and push that as verified scientific study. what do you attribute his testing history to, particularly 2018-2019? is he using directly under the watchful eye of usada and vada?

still not sure what the relevance of mir is.......

for jones first offense, his sentence was for recklessness, not ped use. that was clear from the arbitration.

 

[kflo]

Jones tested positive first for clomiphene then TBOL, was suspended but the sentence was reduced because it was ruled as unintentional despite there being 0 evidence of supplement contamination.
Jones continues to test positive for TBOL every other month and he is allowed to fight because “pulsing” despite there being 0 evidence of the existence of said phenomena with the substance mentioned.

Glad I can be of assistance.

amazing there's no long term peer reviewed scientific study of a prohibited substance......

 

[sosy1325]

You got it right buddy but haters somehow have turned those two known and documented fails into lifelong use of all manner of peds from birth...

Nice strawman.

 

[Rvd Slmr]

amazing there's no long term peer reviewed scientific study of a prohibited substance......

Turinabol was a legit medicine used for thirty years and was extensively used by official doping programs in Eastern Germany. It wouldn't be weird at all to have some literature about it.

 

[kflo]

Turinabol was a legit medicine used for thirty years and was extensively used by official doping programs in Eastern Germany. It wouldn't be weird at all to have some literature about it.

except there isn't any. nothing public at least.

 

[Rvd Slmr]

except there isn't any. nothing public at least.

Whenever there was the slightest doubt about anything, it benefited Jones. That's the most amazing thing, the guy proved a billion times that he is a reckless cunt, and yet he just has to show-up with a lawyer and the arbitration panel believes him, even when there's zero evidence in his favour.

 

[Pacemaker Joe]

except there isn't any. nothing public at least.

Probably not a good idea to publicize a bunch of stuff you've developed and are using for your secret, state sponsored/mandated doping program.

 

[Rvd Slmr]

Probably not a good idea to publicize a bunch of stuff you've developed and are using for your secret, state sponsored/mandated doping program.

Well, there must have been a gold mine at the reunification, with scientific works from the DDR becoming public. Germany is an enormous chemical and pharmaceutical country, I doubt they ignored and forgot about the DDR files.

 

[kflo]

Probably not a good idea to publicize a bunch of stuff you've developed and are using for your secret, state sponsored/mandated doping program.

but they also didn't have the methods to identify traces of metabolites as exists today. even if they have secret studies they wouldn't have been able to detect picograms of metabolites.

 

[acannxr]

The whole Sonnen thing was pretty bad, we all blame that fucking sport killer Greg Jackson, what a weirdo man

You could blame Dan Henderson for not disclosing the injury sooner.
You could blame the UFC for making such a weak card that losing the headliner made it not worth purchasing.
And/or you could blame Jon Jones for not taking a short notice fight against a Middleweight who was coming off a TKO loss two months prior.

Either way, it didn't help Jones' image.