can someone explain submission-only grappling please

Discussion in 'Grappling Technique' started by beat...people...up?, Aug 23, 2018.

  1. beat...people...up? Orange Belt

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    Having just watched Kasai 3, I really want to hear why sub-only is a thing. What % of the time do sub-only grappling matches end in an actual submission?

    Also, since there are no points, it seems to make the ultimate decision worryingly subjective. Why not keep track of points in the first place?
     
  2. DatCutman Blue Belt

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    They do it for a few reasons:

    1) They think it will make the match more exciting if there's no penalty for losing a position chasing after a submission.
    2) They are tired of people getting a point or advantage and stalling out the rest of the match to a victory
    3) Submissions are the ultimate goal, so it's an attempt to reframe the rulesets to chase that ultimate goal.

    However, it fails because of human nature. People would rather draw (or stall and be gifted advantageous positions they could never have achieved and hope to submit) than lose. I think a point system that wins by a point total (i.e., first person to X amount of points) as opposed to a highest point total at the end of a time limit could push the action, but it would make it tough to run a tournament that way, as you have no clue how long the matches will last.

    Either that, or go by Genki Sudo's rule set.
     
  3. ChainFlow Brown Belt

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    I think if we just enforced stalling calls like wrestling or Judo that’d be most of the battle, really.
     
  4. mataleaos Brown Belt

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    Kasai 3 was a points event and not sub-only with the exception of three special matches. So the undercard and main card tournament were points matches but they gave 1 point for sub attempts which was unusual.

    There are all kinds of sub-only events. Some have no time limit. Others have time limits but the decision is based on sub attempts. Other decisions are based more on positional and transitional advantages. Others are more subjective. Most sub-only matches in 2018 have EBI overtime rules. So if the time ends early then they have special overtime rules revolving around starting in either the armbar position or on the person's back for the rear naked choke.
     
  5. Quebec Nick Purple Belt

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    EBI have the best rules right now. I know that the back / spiderweb position overtime is kind of stupid, it's like ending a baseball game with a homerun derby, but we had some of the best performances from this format.

    IBJJF ruleset is now a guard passing VS sweeping tournament. Some guys take risks when they lose on points (as they should do) and this opens things for subs, but there's too many people getting the sweep or the takedown and just bull riding until the time is over.

    Worst is the avantages where stupid stuff gives you ''points'' so you can win even if nothing happens.

    I don't think that every good matches need to be won by a sub, but I want people to try at least.
     
  6. rmongler Black Belt

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    In my opinion, the best way to do it would be to award points based on holding certain positions that put your opponent in chancery, like the double wrist lock, or front head lock, or leg ride, or crucifix, or ezekiel, or scarf hold, or saddle, and so on.

    If they don't finish, then they're still ahead by however many points, and still performing in ways that more proximately lead to finishes anyways; and if they do finish, well then that's just gravy.

    I would consider such a formulation a good training tool for preparing for a 'raw' sub only match as well.

    One argument i've seen around points is that in some respects a point system can actually increase opportunities for submissions, in case the opponent(s) will be more focused on defending a scoring maneuver as well on top of just submission defense alone.

    I personally think there's some logic to that depending on how it's implemented, so you might have holding certain chancery positions long enough count as a fall in of itself, even without a tap. I think the judo pinning rules are a good example/implementation of this, though i might expand it to include both pinning shoulders flat or chest flat.

    If this ends up looking a lot like a catch wrestling ruleset, i don't think it's a coincidence.


    Another thing to think about is looking 'outside the box', and consider rulesets or dynamics that extend beyond a single individual match isolated in space-time.

    For example, what if in a folkstyle dual-meet, team victory was awarded to the side that got the most pins?

    The character of coaching, training, and competition would change over night.

    Quintet takes this approach in their events, and it has produced, each time in each event, and in only two events, some of the finest scenes of grappling action i've seen in a good long while.
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2018
  7. TeamKenpo Above all, training should be fun

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    I went and watched a sub-only event a while back (Rise Invitational). There were definitely some guys who were really going for the finish and that made it fun to watch. However, about half the matches ended in a draw. Many of those were still fun to watch though as a spectator, but as a previous poster said, some were boring as the athletes seemed to be playing not to lose.

    I think sub-only with EBI overtime is the best we can do right now.
     
  8. BJJ_Rage Gold Belt

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    ponts is better for mma, points is better for fighting, cause being on top matters, passing guard matters... Now, it is however counter active to the final goal which is sbumission. Then again, sub only rules are getting extremely boring, althouhg it favors submissions over position.

    So, may be a mix of both, points achieve only for super dominant positions, back and mount, then ebi OT in case of draws.
     
  9. FatherSauce Blue Belt

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    Combat wrestling rules are interesting and I'd like to see more events with them.
     
  10. Alech33 Yellow Belt

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    Don't even get me started with how it's doing a lot more harm then good for BJJ as a martial art. The idea is for more subs but it's really ruining the sport imo. Instead of position before submission it's really a showcase for either mismatches or leg battles. If not they decide based off a rediculous tie breaker criteria. No reward for what you do in the 10 minutes, it's who's better at the back control or spider web
     
  11. Alech33 Yellow Belt

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    Imagine if boxing had a knockout only rule set. It's like don't use your jabs or setup punches, just swing for the fences
     
  12. Alech33 Yellow Belt

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    I'm assuming you're referring to CJJ? If so I agree with you, adding strikes will be the differentiator between who can actually grapple and who's good at playing rules. When strikes get added you don't want to pull guard. This will force people to actually fight for top position and protect themselves. I want to see this grow to keep BJJ as a credible martial art
     
  13. THEfightsAREfixed you can do it

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    Its like if people in wrestling were super sour about losing so acted like pins were the only wins that counted and then campaigned for pin only matches.

    It's an anti-sport mindset, trying to get closer to a "fight" than a sport.
     
  14. ChainFlow Brown Belt

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  15. rmongler Black Belt

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    Many early forms of wrestling were pin only formats. Ones that weren't tended in turn to be 'takedown only' formats, like sumo or mongolian wrestling. Perhaps it might be more accurate to say that most 'emergent' formats of grappling were 'instant kill' formats, where the object is based around simple to understand (and simple to judge) victory conditions.

    More complex criteria like the use of points appeared later since people wanted a way to decide matches after a short time even without a decisive fall, so they create scoring based around their beliefs of what valuable behaviors are (such that one could be said 'to have done better' than the other).
     
  16. beat...people...up? Orange Belt

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    It's not like international wrestling is known for being fun to watch, frankly. There's a reason they wanted to remove it from the Olympics. Even folkstyle/American collegiate (men's... women's will be following international rules apparently) wrestling is more dynamic.
     
  17. THEfightsAREfixed you can do it

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    Indeed. So you agree then?

    You're speaking from a historical standpoint, I was giving a modern equivalent to what occurred in the competitive BJJ scene.
     
  18. Alech33 Yellow Belt

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    I only watched a little bit, what makes this combat? What are the rules in this?
     
  19. Alech33 Yellow Belt

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    Any sport needs some time limits. I'm sure there was a point where high level wrestlers went very long periods without a td. Even now, wrestling is one of the few spots I know that will automatically start ppl on the ground to keep action
     
  20. ChainFlow Brown Belt

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    It's a successor to the older Combat Wrestling style that produced Rumina Sato, Masakazu Imanari, and others.


    Rules for the new version:
    http://combatwrestling.org/wp/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/FICW-International-Events-Rule-Set-2018.pdf

    No-gi. Most submissions allowed (no heelhooks or neck cranks anymore, at least for now). Win by submission or by having 12 more points than your opponent.

    If I wanted to train people to really fight with grappling, I'd use something like this ruleset.
     

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