Can someone explain Cesar Gracie's promotion philosophy/standards?

[gocubs1815]

We americans are a little too obsessed with getting to the next belt in my opinion. Consider that there is really no standard that makes any sense to qualify one person or another for a particular belt grading...

Just train.

I think you're right. It is kind of a cultural thing in Amaerica where we are all about hard work paying off and having something to show for it. Like "I've been working at this company for x number of years, I'm the one who deserves this promotion!"

I think if you ask many Americans, outside of providing for their family, one of the major things we value in a career is progress/upward mobility.

Wouldn't suprise me if this translates to other things like BJJ.

 

[ichimonji]

I am unsure of how this sandbagging is good.

If you win your division as a white belt you are still just a white belt. I think if you place in a national tournament that is good enough to promote.

But on the other hand if you score third in a small tournament local to your area I think there is room for improvement.

The way our tournament up here in WA stopped the sand bagging was to score the black belt matches as 10 point brown 5 purple 4 blue 3 and white as 1.

If you school had 20 competitors and all won at white belt you school still may not win the trophy.

 

[SpunK238]

To me its not a cultural thing. This has to do with fairness in competition. I have no issues waiting for promotion and I'm all for the "just fucking train" mentality. But when you got 6-7 year blue belts, that's just ridiculous. That's like expecting a child to master quadratic equations before pushing him through to high school.

 

[ejduhay18]

To me, belts don't mean much unless you back it up.

I'm currently a blue and don't want to be promoted until I myself feel ready and my instructor has the confidence in me. Besides, I'd rather be the blue belt who dominates the competition scene than the purple who gets smashed in the first round.

 

[gogoGomi]

have to do is gogo gomi, now get off your ass and do it!

wtf?

 

[minimagpro]

We americans are a little too obsessed with getting to the next belt in my opinion. Consider that there is really no standard that makes any sense to qualify one person or another for a particular belt grading.

Even regularly rolling with individuals it is hard to say that such and such person is ready for the next belt level. You can get an idea of where their skills development is at, but there is more to a martial art than just physical skills repetition. As a case study, there were four bluebelts at our gym, all with four stripes. 3 from the ground up with our coach, one who came in with 3 stripes from elsewhere. He started his stripes over per coaches request when he came to us. All four guys are good, but have differant games. Two are 185 two are 160. All four are very successfull in tournaments, multiple naga golds and smaller local comps as well. One of them made purple this week, the guy from another gym.

Now there is low grade grumbling and speculation from the other 3, but it really is simple. Coach thinks they need a little more time. Two of them started bjj at the same time I did locally, we were whitebelts together. However I had several years of wrestling judo and lower quality bjj under my belt already. I made purple 8 months ago. There is no set standard, people learn and develop and differant speeds. At the end of the day it makes very little differance, we are all training, making each other better.

Just train.

You can't say "just train". A lot of people spend money to compete (and going to tournaments is $$$) and how would you feel if you fought a guy in the first round who was a 9 year purple belt?

Your situation works great if everyone was just training for the fun of it but when you throw tournaments into the mix, its called sandbagging.

 

[gasmotorsports]

I compete and can really care less about other peoples promotion times and stuff like that. If a couch wants to hold his student back forever all he is hurting is his student. If you are a world champion blue belt all it means to me is your a purple belt. The tough fights are the ones that mater to me. People will always have something to whine about. When people get promoted quickly the forum complains its too soon but if its a touch overdue they are sand baggers haha. Who cares I just like jiu jitsu.

 

[Cash Bill 52]

If you don't mind sharing, what is his style of rolling like? I'm always curious about how the different members of the family roll.

Lots of pressure... Quick explosive submissions. Be ready to tap!

 

[Sloth]

Lots of pressure... Quick explosive submissions. Be ready to tap!

Nice, thanks!

 

[elbigsam]

Well, I said a whole wall of other stuff besides just train. Gotta figure someone at purple 9 years is prolly older than me, prolly started training around the same time I did, and prolly doesn't train under a blackbelt. Or if he does, maybe has big holes in his game that he hasn't filled. I'm at about 11.5 years of experiance myself counting in my wrestling and judo years. Try being a whitebelt in 2008 when you started training bjj in 1997. Wanna know how I made it to purple, I just trained.

You can't say "just train". A lot of people spend money to compete (and going to tournaments is $$$) and how would you feel if you fought a guy in the first round who was a 9 year purple belt?

Your situation works great if everyone was just training for the fun of it but when you throw tournaments into the mix, its called sandbagging.

 

[boboplata***]

maybe because he's not actually a gracie & it irks him. that's why he'll sandbag his students to compensate & get away with it because he's cesar gracie.

i'm just throwing that one out there. i don't really care about promotions or sandbaggers.

do you guys have link to cesar gracie team's medal tally & their ratio of members/participants/winners?

thanks.

 

[Cash Bill 52]

maybe because he's not actually a gracie & it irks him. that's why he'll sandbag his students to compensate & get away with it because he's cesar gracie.

i'm just throwing that one out there. i don't really care about promotions or sandbaggers.

do you guys have link to cesar gracie team's medal tally & their ratio of members/participants/winners?

thanks.

His grandfather is Carlos Gracie. Just like Roger, it is not uncommon for people to take their mother's maiden name.

We do alright in competition, but we are not tearing it up at all. In fact, most of the team rarely competed in bjj tournaments at all. In 2008, I was one of 6 guys that went to the Pan Ams. In 2010 I think we had like 50. I couldn't tell you how many medals we won. Not too many probably.

For many years Cesar's focus was MMA. I think the promotion issue was with people like Dave Terrrel, Jake Shields, the Diaz boys, and some other names you might not of heard of. Black belts from Brazil would come to do seminars and get tapped out by Jake when he was a purple belt. Jake took second at Abu Dhabi at purple belt beating Leo Santos with a popped elbow. Look...




There weren't many promotions because most people couldn't survive the daily training. Most people quit after getting their ass handed to them by professional fighters who weren't interested in going light with you. It probably wasn't the best business decision for Cesar.

As the MMA team got more famous, he had to focus on them. We went through a few young Brazilian black belts as our daily instructors. Cesar was still there but the day to day was being managed by people like Vinny Maghales and Sergio (forgot his last name).

Three years ago Caio Terra came on the scene. Since then, I would say our promotion system is getting more in line with reality. Our top bjj guys are on our MMA team so they don't compete in bjj tournies that often.

We are still an up and coming team. Cesar was never interested in seeing how many black belts he could produce. Caio is a strong willed instructor who educated Cesar on who should be what belt...

I know Caio had to convince Cesar that I was a brown belt. I was never worried about it.

 

[running man]

i like his standards. at least he doesn't give out belts to any chump like the vast majority of bjj gyms.

 

[ElKarlo]

His grandfather is Carlos Gracie. Just like Roger, it is not uncommon for people to take their mother's maiden name.

We do alright in competition, but we are not tearing it up at all. In fact, most of the team rarely competed in bjj tournaments at all. In 2008, I was one of 6 guys that went to the Pan Ams. In 2010 I think we had like 50. I couldn't tell you how many medals we won. Not too many probably.

For many years Cesar's focus was MMA. I think the promotion issue was with people like Dave Terrrel, Jake Shields, the Diaz boys, and some other names you might not of heard of. Black belts from Brazil would come to do seminars and get tapped out by Jake when he was a purple belt. Jake took second at Abu Dhabi at purple belt beating Leo Santos with a popped elbow. Look...







There weren't many promotions because most people couldn't survive the daily training. Most people quit after getting their ass handed to them by professional fighters who weren't interested in going light with you. It probably wasn't the best business decision for Cesar.

As the MMA team got more famous, he had to focus on them. We went through a few young Brazilian black belts as our daily instructors. Cesar was still there but the day to day was being managed by people like Vinny Maghales and Sergio (forgot his last name).

Three years ago Caio Terra came on the scene. Since then, I would say our promotion system is getting more in line with reality. Our top bjj guys are on our MMA team so they don't compete in bjj tournies that often.

We are still an up and coming team. Cesar was never interested in seeing how many black belts he could produce. Caio is a strong willed instructor who educated Cesar on who should be what belt...

I know Caio had to convince Cesar that I was a brown belt. I was never worried about it.

Wow, that's interesting. So he was really focused on pro MMA fighters, that he just couldn't spend time with the ammys. Makes sense, esp if he used his same criteria for pro promotions and for the regular guys.

 

[ElKarlo]

i like his standards. at least he doesn't give out belts to any chump like the vast majority of bjj gyms.

Not true. Most gyms do not give out belts. If they are, they perhaps are giving out blue and purples out too fast, but not to the point where you have a high white belt wearing a purple. Perhaps at most, a mid blue who is now a purple.

Also purple is the last belt that you can get and still be not all that good. Nobody gets a Brown and esp a Black for free.

 

[Gengis Dan]

to me its not a cultural thing. This has to do with fairness in competition. I have no issues waiting for promotion and i'm all for the "just fucking train" mentality. But when you got 6-7 year blue belts, that's just ridiculous. That's like expecting a child to master quadratic equations before pushing him through to high school.

qft!!!

 

[GJJNY]

Also purple is the last belt that you can get and still be not all that good. Nobody gets a Brown and esp a Black for free.

Thats a matter of perspective. Some guys are really good at one thing and suck at everything else and get by. Really depends on the school.

I travel and come across browns who are stocky and muscular, they have a good smash game from the top, but they can't pass guard or play guard for shit. Kind of embarrassing if you ask me.

 

[12thJJ]

My 2c. It's not just about you, but also your instructors ability to teach. If it was just about you, then you could just train without an instructor in your basement, or an 'instructorless' club.

I think there are two ways to look at it. If your instructor is tough on promotions, when you get to purple or brown, you'll be a solid purple of brown with no doubts. Or, another way to look at it is your instructor is not a good fit for you.

A good instructor teaches and you improve because of his superior teaching. Look at Carlson Gracie, Romeo Cavalcanti, Fabio Gurgel, Robert Drysdale, etc.

I personally think that those guys who are 8 year purples would have easily been a legit purple after 5 years with Renzo, for example. I think the guy whose argument says, "it's hard to get belts from me", doesn't hold weight.

Get your student there in 6 years, while having him do well in high level competition is a way more sensible benchmark, and a more believable testament of the worth of your academy and teaching skills, rather taking forever to give rank.

 

[lechien]

Seriously, 12thJJ! WTF!

I understand you have an agenda against them but do you have to keep stirring away!

Have you lost against a CG competitor?

You do not train at Cesar or at Renzo but somehow you think you can draw conclusion and comparison from the safety of your computer.

Some academies take their belt system seriously and do not feel it is their right to wear the next belt because it should as "quick" as the academy down the road.

I do not train with any Gracies. You should see the reactions of the faces of the new white belts that join the team when I announced that I am a 8 years purple.

But according to you, I should be what belt?

 

[12thJJ]

Seriously, 12thJJ! WTF!

I understand you have an agenda against them but do you have to keep stirring away!

Have you lost against a CG competitor?

You do not train at Cesar or at Renzo but somehow you think you can draw conclusion and comparison from the safety of your computer.

Some academies take their belt system seriously and do not feel it is their right to wear the next belt because it should as "quick" as the academy down the road.

I do not train with any Gracies. You should see the reactions of the faces of the new white belts that join the team when I announced that I am a 8 years purple.

But according to you, I should be what belt?

No agenda man. Just giving my opinion. I might be dead wrong, but it's only my worthless opinion.

I like Cesar a lot actually. He is one of my favorite Gracies. I like watching his instructionals and the way he breaks down technique. One of the best teachers in the business IMO. Also, I understand he is more concentrating on MMA than Jitz, and other people teach his JJ program, so it's not really a bash of his teaching skills.

Seems like a real cool cat, and I agree some people need to work harder than others, while some gyms have mat rats that train 6+ hours a day who represent the school well by winning major comps.

But, I think a really good teacher shares valuable knowledge that is indispensable, and that extra knowledge, the valuable experience they bring to the table, and teaching method is what separates him from other teachers. And that's what makes a good school stand out -- 18 month blues that terrorize the competition scene, not 6 year blues that terrorize the competition scene.