Can someone explain Cesar Gracie's promotion philosophy/standards?
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Mat Nemesis**
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it seems like the further you are away from black belt, the faster you want it. So many white belts are like "how long to BB, how long to BB"
I don't know if they think that being a BB will solve all their problems or make them super rich.
anyway, kudos to cesar staying true to what he believes.
I don't know if they think that being a BB will solve all their problems or make them super rich.
anyway, kudos to cesar staying true to what he believes.
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I think that sums it up EPICALLY all in one statement. When you get it the others in class should say, "whew, it's about time!"
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Makes me happy to see some people don't give out belts easy.
Well said! That reality should help us all in our pursuit... not of belts but of Martial Truth.
Tony Manifold
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I am a big fan of that attitude myself. If you look at my martial arts career, I have very few advanced belts. One reason was the fact that I didn't really see a need to pay extra for a belt test or I would miss them due to work or family commitments (probably would have got a stripe last saturday but was at my daughters birthday, for example). However, everyone in the gym new what level I was at. When I did karate, I was a yellow belt in the advanced class. When I did judo I was an orange belt who would give the browns and blacks a good run. My judo coach got sick of me not going t obelt tests and threw a belt at me and said, "You might as well start wearing this now".
I have the same attitude with BJJ. Eventually, my instructor will decide he has to promote me and give me a shiny new belt. Hell if I really want a BB I could get one with a hell of a lot less work. There are people out there who will give them out for for money and a little bit of skill. Marcus isn't quite as stingy on the belts as Ceasar is but when I say my coach is a Marcus Soares BB, people know he is legit.
While I agree with having high standards, I disagree with what I call "ridiculous" standards. I just read the interview with my old teacher, Carlson Gracie Jr., and he said, "Hey, if you deserve it, you deserve it." Exactly.
Winning tournaments to get promoted is one of the dumbest criteria an instructor can have, imo. First, I'd have to blow a lot of money and dedicate a lot of my personal time to compete regularly in tournaments. What if I get staph or ringworm right before the tournament soon after I register and I'm out $60 or more? What if I face a guy who's wrestled for 15 years looking to get his next belt because his instructor told him he has to win a tournament to get promoted? Then, he wins because he scores takedown points on all of his opponents and doesn't necessarily win "using jiu-jitsu." Of course, he still gets promoted because hey, he "won a tournament"? Makes no sense. I "compete" every time I roll in class and spend enough money on lessons. Personally, if I was going to spend more money, it would be on privates or instructional materials.
I don't know how good Nate Diaz is in a gi but he has triangled BJJ black belts in MMA, and he's still a brown belt?!! Nick Diaz had to gogo plata Gomi to get his black belt? Let me ask you guys something: Who did Cesar beat in tournaments or MMA to get his black belt? Is Nick Diaz now the head instructor and owner of Cesar's school because Frank Shamrock knocked Cesar out in 15 seconds but Nick forced Shamrock to quit in 2 rounds?
High standards are great but I don't agree with holding others to standards you yourself weren't held to. "Black belt" just represents a certain level of skill and people that continue training never stop learning. I know I would rather learn from a guy like "Jacare" Cavalcanti than say, Marcelo Garcia, even though Marcelo is the "hot item" in jiu-jitsu right now. If Marcelo's that good, then imagine how much knowledge the teacher of Marcelo's teacher must have.
Every teacher having their own, made-up standards is the reason belts are so inconsistent from school to school. Even though I can't really stand the IBJJF, I wholeheartedly agree with them setting minimum requirements for each belt in their organization. Guys like Cesar (and I've heard also Relson Gracie) having standards much higher than every other instructor gives off a sort of "elitist" vibe. What do I mean? "You, the potential student should give your money to me and not to that other guy claiming to be a BJJ black belt because my blue belts destroy his!"
Get it? Sorry about the long post.
Winning tournaments to get promoted is one of the dumbest criteria an instructor can have, imo. First, I'd have to blow a lot of money and dedicate a lot of my personal time to compete regularly in tournaments. What if I get staph or ringworm right before the tournament soon after I register and I'm out $60 or more? What if I face a guy who's wrestled for 15 years looking to get his next belt because his instructor told him he has to win a tournament to get promoted? Then, he wins because he scores takedown points on all of his opponents and doesn't necessarily win "using jiu-jitsu." Of course, he still gets promoted because hey, he "won a tournament"? Makes no sense. I "compete" every time I roll in class and spend enough money on lessons. Personally, if I was going to spend more money, it would be on privates or instructional materials.
I don't know how good Nate Diaz is in a gi but he has triangled BJJ black belts in MMA, and he's still a brown belt?!! Nick Diaz had to gogo plata Gomi to get his black belt? Let me ask you guys something: Who did Cesar beat in tournaments or MMA to get his black belt? Is Nick Diaz now the head instructor and owner of Cesar's school because Frank Shamrock knocked Cesar out in 15 seconds but Nick forced Shamrock to quit in 2 rounds?
High standards are great but I don't agree with holding others to standards you yourself weren't held to. "Black belt" just represents a certain level of skill and people that continue training never stop learning. I know I would rather learn from a guy like "Jacare" Cavalcanti than say, Marcelo Garcia, even though Marcelo is the "hot item" in jiu-jitsu right now. If Marcelo's that good, then imagine how much knowledge the teacher of Marcelo's teacher must have.
Every teacher having their own, made-up standards is the reason belts are so inconsistent from school to school. Even though I can't really stand the IBJJF, I wholeheartedly agree with them setting minimum requirements for each belt in their organization. Guys like Cesar (and I've heard also Relson Gracie) having standards much higher than every other instructor gives off a sort of "elitist" vibe. What do I mean? "You, the potential student should give your money to me and not to that other guy claiming to be a BJJ black belt because my blue belts destroy his!"
Get it? Sorry about the long post.
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Excellent post. Thank you.
Freezing Winds**
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if you read the posts, cesar seems to wait until enough people are like "X person needs to get promoted". According to the posts doing well in comps can help but it is not the only criteria.
Marcelo is not the hot item, many consider Marcelo to be the best grappler in the world.
People know cesar's high standards for belt promotion and they can go there or not.
Are you doing bjj to get to the next belt or doing it to learn bjj?
I read the posts and I believe Cash Bill said Cesar started taking teaching ability into account. Montanha's written two books and has trained (I'm assuming fairly consistently) for 15 years. Does he still not know how to teach? If that's the case, the problem is with Montanha, not Cesar.
Look, however, who Montanha is being compared to. Nick and Nate Diaz, Jake Shields, Gil Castillo, etc. all of whom are widely regarded as some of the best fighters in the history of MMA (and have also done well in grappling/jiu-jitsu tournaments). How good he is compared to them is what defines his knowledge and ability as far as Brazilian Jiu-jitsu is concerned?
I train jiu-jitsu to become good at and knowledgable about jiu-jitsu. Not to become a Mundials or MMA champion and not to become good at kickboxing and wrestling (which is what I'd have to do to be successful in MMA). Winning jiu-jitsu tournaments is about learning how to play that particular game based on the rules. For examples, check out some of "World Brazilian Jiu-jitsu Champion" Marcio Feitosa-Souza's matches.
Look, however, who Montanha is being compared to. Nick and Nate Diaz, Jake Shields, Gil Castillo, etc. all of whom are widely regarded as some of the best fighters in the history of MMA (and have also done well in grappling/jiu-jitsu tournaments). How good he is compared to them is what defines his knowledge and ability as far as Brazilian Jiu-jitsu is concerned?
I train jiu-jitsu to become good at and knowledgable about jiu-jitsu. Not to become a Mundials or MMA champion and not to become good at kickboxing and wrestling (which is what I'd have to do to be successful in MMA). Winning jiu-jitsu tournaments is about learning how to play that particular game based on the rules. For examples, check out some of "World Brazilian Jiu-jitsu Champion" Marcio Feitosa-Souza's matches.
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Well I'm sure you'd LOVE Baret Yoshida's promotion system. For every FOUR submission wins you get in competition, you get a stripe. You could train for ten years under him, and if you never submit anyone in competition you're still a white belt.
lol, thats funny... those guys must attack from the start!
That's why I'm all for more consistent promotion standards. If you've trained for 5 years but just didn't have enough luck (and no, I don't mean skill) to submit 20 people in competition for a blue belt, are you really a white belt?
What if I'm a white belt, face 20 guys who happened to be training for only 3 months and submit them easily (because I've been training for 6 months)? Yet my classmate doesn't get promoted even though he hands me my ass constantly because 14 of the 20 guys he's faced were ex-wrestlers and have been grappling their whole lives? Once again, it's all about consistent promotion standards.
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That's exactly why I HATE belt tests and the fees and bs associated with them! If you at a certain level...you are at a certain level. You don't need to come in on some special Saturday, pay some fee, and have someone else watch you, just so everyone can say, "yep, he deserves a promotion," when everyone knew you deserved a promotion anyway! This is actually one reason I would never actually TAKE a belt test. I'd just say, "nah, I'm busy that day," until it finally got so apparent that it would actually look bad on the instructor if he didn't promote me. There's no reason for belts tests and all that crap. If you are at X level, you should be wearing X belt. Period.
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In response to your first paragraph. I have taught a lot, and my classes are popular mostly due to my personality and my high energy coaching. But I do lack some precision there too because I like to teach principles that connect all the moves. As compared to Cesar and our paid full time instructors they obviously have an edge in the technical details.
I think some consideration of my teaching carried some weight in my promotions thus far.
I spoke to a friend and long time training partner yesterday about this. I get very little slack for my age in years because the years dont show much on my body. So that contributes much to the high expectation.
Mostly to be "real" here. You guys have to understand Cesar has known me for 15 years, so it is not a superficial view, like someone from the outside thinking that guy is a black belt.
What my friend and I were remembering yesterday was back when Cesar and Ralph shared the academy. I was coached mostly by Ralph, who was very hard on me, and rightly so because I am of the personality that responds positively and it brings out my best.
At times to get that extra drive I will talk shit and pester CashBill or others to the point of wanting to kick my ass, and then I train well.
It is those things people from the outside can not see, the subtle things an attentive coach sees. Cesar's standards in BJJ are not too high. His standards in being real and honest with his students about their personal potential is stubborn. He invests his time to make you good, but dosnt really compare you to anyone besides the best you.
I am not being held back or held to an unrealistic expectation. The responsibility has been in my hands all along. The only factor of my being 55 years old is, that I havnt been in a rush and I build each step on a good foundation. As it turns out, for my personal development, I have actually need both Cesar's subtle coaching as well as Ralph's aggressive style.
Its hard at times not to think about belts, but.....................
..........still thinking of the words here.......................
Personal development that could be "fully" realized, but missed by the focus on just one part of the journey, I think a person could miss the whole point of training. Its the training and the enjoyment of the lifestyle that is not meant to have an end point.
Keep training guys!
And thanks for the interest you guys have shown in our academy. Were just like everybody else who trains Brazilian Jiu-jitsu.
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I consider Montanha one of my original teachers with Ralph, Cesar, Kurt Osiander, and Nino Schembri.
I still consider him my instructor 14 years later.
Now, if we can only get the IBJJF to create a senior 7 division...:icon_conf
I still consider him my instructor 14 years later.
Now, if we can only get the IBJJF to create a senior 7 division...:icon_conf
