Can Pacquiao surpass Mayweather's legacy?

[deucesarewild]

Why can't both be miraculous in different ways, because the truth is that the arguments break both ways pretty evenly?

Pac is an champ in 8 weight classes and some of the talent he ran up against in the lighter weights get unfortunately underappreciated. Pac probably had a better peak, and fought as many or more dangerous names. Pacquiao lost six times. Sure he won against Morales, Marquez, and Bradley, but they were still losses.

Mayweather was a five weight class champ and he fought a lot of destroyers. He also never lost. He aged better but he was stylistically lucky in the long run because he was never a high output "force of nature" (as Kellerman described him years ago). So Mayweather never looked like he visibly slipped because he didn't have the attributes that fade fast first (speed, explosiveness). He stayed in his prime for longer. That's staying power. He is also very good at making only a couple of adjustments and keeping it simple. Anyone else notice, the older he got, the fewer things he did against a particulat opponent? Impressive.

When the two fought it couldn't have been a "true" account of things. We got an old Pacquiao. Some people won't like this but whenever we have the "who would have won" we always take both guys at their peaks. Thing is, when they fought we got Mayweather closer to his peak, and Pac further from his peak. So the fight wasn't a true reveal, it also was only ever going to favour Mayweather the longer the waiting game was played.

So we got the best we could get. It wasn't a fun fight, but it - to a limited extent - answer the question: "who wins?" The answer was Mayweather wins in 2015, in 2009-2010, we will never know. Both guys were closer to their absolute best in 2009-2010, but my gut tells me Pacquiao may have lost more in those intervening six years. Really. He had so much speed and awkward/unpredictable angles.

But Mayweather also has never lost.

So there are arguments for both and I say both are special. Some people like apples, some like oranges.

 

[Woldog]

Of his generation? who do you think is/was a better technical boxer?

I specifically worded it how I did to avoid having anyone argue about this or that or he or she.

 

[svmVR2097]

Of his generation? who do you think is/was a better technical boxer?

In a technical defense aspect, There is an argument about the maybe one person he did truly avoid during his career, Winky Wright. With whom they had a bout details agreed to before Floyd pulled out.

 

[zapataxiv]

You’re as delusional as gas pipe. @Anthony Casso

 

[ssx]

It would be tough for Pac to surpass Floyds legacy. Floyd being undefeated does mean a lot and he has some great scalps on his resume. Pac's big wins are even more impressive IMO because he is a naturally smaller guy, a lot smaller in fact. Still, Pac has some ugly losses and that is hard to overcome. No shame in losing a close decision to prime Eric Morales, but the faceplant KO by JMM really hurts his resume. His resume shows 7 losses, and in reality he should only have 5 (no way he lost Bradley 1 and Horn). Still those are 5 more than Floyd. He could really up his case if he could defeat another 2-3 big names before he retires... say pick 2 or 3 from Mikey Garcia, Lomachenko, Spence, Crawford or Thurman. I don't see him beating any of them at this stage though. Would also help his case if he can convince Floyd to fight him again and beat him.

 

[AnthonyCasso]

Ok this cherry picking narrative has to stop, How many champions and/champion level fighters has Floyd faced and defeated, a cherry picking fighter would avoid these types of fights like the plaque. Oh and Pac and Mayweather have faced some common opponents so was Pac cherry picking when he fought, Hatton, Dela Hoya, Cotto, Mosley and Marquez for example? You can't have it both ways. No fighter is invincible which is why Mayweather's unblemished record is even more impressive as he was so complete that he could adjust to every fight style even during times he was experiencing difficulty, Pac was not like this at all and was pretty much one dimensional, although that one dimension was extremely destructive, Pacs inability to adjust to Marquez through four fights is a perfect example of this.

You talk about Floyd losing to Castillo but that is only your opinion because the judges saw it differently and when they fought the second time Floyd made the necessary adjustments and won rematch clearly leaving no doubt in peoples minds. Manny struggled to adjust and separate himself against Marquez with four fights of information and the rivalry was ended with Pac being put to sleep. Pac also did not adjust against Horn and Bradley regardless of what you think about the results of those fights. The size narrative also needs to stop, did Marquez have a significant size advantage against Pac during their fights? Did Morales have a significant size advantage? Did Hatton? Did Tim Bradley??? No they did not. Pac was a WW as he naturally grew into the weight. I have no doubt that their are fighters that would give Mayweather all he can handle like, Tommy Hearns, Sugar Ray Leonard, not to mention Sugar Ray Robinson. But, we are not comparing Mayweather to these fighters and there are way more fighters that would give Pac problems in boxing history then would have given May problems. The above would be enough of a case for Mayweather legacy being above that of Pac's but the result of their head to head fight just puts it over the top. Pac is an all time great, and the second best fighter of his generation and their is no shame in that.

Keep in mind that Manny MOVED up to fight all those guys while the naturally bigger man hovered around 147 or 154, mayweather never fought anyone big enough to bother him physically speaking. There were plenty of good fights moving up to MW , but hey I don't blame him . While manny said fuck that and fought huge dudes like margarito, Cotto, I guess they were all weight drained when a small Filipino guy wasted them. Lol at Marquez koing Pac while suddenly gaining 15 pounds of muscle with memo.

 

[PHATV]

Different fighters have different legacies that mean different things to different people. Me personally couldn't careless about Floyd or his career, I'll always prefer Pacquiao's all or nothing style.
Floyd is the best technical boxer of his generation, there is no doubt about that. Manny was the best pressure fighter of that same generation. I'm not sure why people feel its a competition about legacies now days.

I agree to a point, but there is not much of a comparison in my eyes. While Manny is certainly on the list (down a ways, IMO), I have Floyd as in the GOAT discussion, "TBE" discussion if you want to really flame me, but as a boxer I find it hard to point out any weakness in Floyd's game. So complete, such a high ring IQ and ability to adapt combined with once-in-a-lifetime skills and training dedication.

I have him like 1a behind SRR by the time history judges it all. He really fought a lot of great fighters and beat them all. Really schooled a lot of top-shelf talents. Frustrated everyone who thought they would be able to find him in the ring.

At the same time, my policy has always been never to miss a Pacman fight. Ever. One of my favorites, a top HOF'er and a true warrior, even if not top-5 or top-10 GOAT on my list.

 

[PHATV]

Keep in mind that Manny MOVED up to fight all those guys while the naturally bigger man hovered around 147 or 154, mayweather never fought anyone big enough to bother him physically speaking. There were plenty of good fights moving up to MW , but hey I don't blame him . While manny said fuck that and fought huge dudes like margarito, Cotto, I guess they were all weight drained when a small Filipino guy wasted them. Lol at Marquez koing Pac while suddenly gaining 15 pounds of muscle with memo.

Taking on a young, undefeated lion in Canelo who was probably 175 pounds (even 177, more?) in the ring when Floyd was what, 153? That's moving up a bit. I don't see any reason to argue about two of the greats of the recent era, but give Floyd his due. And he never lost, man. Not one time. That's big.

 

[Takamine86]

Both were great but saw them fight each other. One was simply better.

 

[Streeter]

I think you go a bit far using phrases like "scared" and "guts".

Dont forget, Mayweather was 38 at the time and had struggled with Maidina and had been hit more than ever. Since around the buzz of the fight began, Mayweather fought Hatton, Cotto, Ortiz, Mosely, Marquez, Canelo, Guererro.... not exactly the bum of the month club.

How many of those fighters did he fight in their primes? He fought a green Canelo, a past prime Cotto n Moseley , Ortiz Hatton , n Guerro wernt elite IMO. I give him JMM as he was at end of his prime when May dominated but he did miss weight.

May was great but I cannot see May winning a 2009 fight with Pac man.

 

[AnthonyCasso]

You’re as delusional as gas pipe. @Anthony Casso[/QUO

Taking on a young, undefeated lion in Canelo who was probably 175 pounds (even 177, more?) in the ring when Floyd was what, 153? That's moving up a bit. I don't see any reason to argue about two of the greats of the recent era, but give Floyd his due. And he never lost, man. Not one time. That's big.

It wasn't a dangerous fight and canelo isn't even a large middle weight , he was also green and everyone on this forum pointed it out. I doubt he would beat canelo had he matured .I still think PBF is a legend but he didn't take the risks Pac took , he was more calculated and tentative with who he fought. With Pac , we really never knew outcomes because there were so many xfactors. It always seemed to me that Floyd Already won on paper before the fight even started. Pac always fought bigger men and people on paper who should have hurt him. I guess that's difference between the 2 fighters. I think Pac gets a lot of hate for being great, I'm not a hugger but that dude has blown my mind. Even at 40 he's still a top tier guy and small.

 

[AnthonyCasso]

JMM was duck soup for May lol, JMM can't counter the master boxer. May didn't leave him any openings or anything to counter. Mannys style was perfect because all the speed and power was used against him. JMM had the perfect style to be Pac and still lost 2-3 out of 4.

 

[Guitardude]

You cannot compare a guy who was the lineal flyweight champion to a naturally bigger guy and use their fight against each other to prove who's better. Why not compare GGG vs. Floyd? Oh right, because Floyd was too chickensh!t to move up like Manny did throughout his whole career.

Manny is the ONLY 8 division world champ and DESTROYED every fighter in his path during his prime years. Floyd was obviously too scared to fight Manny in his prime and his resume was carefully planned, with carefully picked opponents. Both all time greats, but if what Manny did was courageous, awesome to watch, and unprecedented - will probably never happen again in our lifetimes. Someone going 51-0 in our lifetimes? Ricardo Lopez was 50-0-1. Duran was 72-1 before he lost again. SRR was 128-1-2. Marciano was 49-0. RJJ should've been 49-0 also. What I'm saying is that Floyd was a great boxer, but what he did wasn't anything that basically hasn't been done before. Another fighter who was lineal flyweight champ who won a title at light MW? lmao that is just superhuman.

 

[DeJulez]

Mayweather is better than Pacquiao.
If the fight happened in 2009, it would have been the same result.

 

[PHATV]

Mayweather is better than Pacquiao.
If the fight happened in 2009, it would have been the same result.

I always felt it was an 8-4 loss at best for Pac, from day one. Styles make fights and Floyd is a much better boxer.

 

[Absolut]

Manny ...DESTROYED every fighter in his path during his prime years.

Floyd was obviously too scared to fight Manny in his prime

(Floyd's) resume was carefully planned, with carefully picked opponents

Max needs to fix that herpes sore.

my question is what evidence do you have of the above statements for Floyd? what fighters did he avoid? can you walk me through his carefully picked resume and who he avoided?

what window are you using for Manny?

Manny going through 8 divisions is impressive- 'it has never been done before' is somewhat misleading, while accurate. originally they only had 8 divisions.

I like Manny better as a person and a fighter. But, what do we do with Manny's fear of blood tests/ they drain your strength? I'm not sold on his fear of needles excuse, although having a wife with a needle phobia who had tattoos, I'm not buying into the Manny has a tattoo he cant fear needles. His trainer, Roach, hasn't exactly had a spotless record with fighters who get popped.

Pacquiao and company asked Mayweather’s camp, “What would be the penalty if a fighter tested positive?” and “If a fighter tested positive could we keep it a secret for the sake of boxing?” according to an ESPN report by Teddy Atlas. THATS IS ALARMING!

 

[Manassamaulerx]

I think I want Manny to surpass Floyd’s legacy more than I think it’s even slightly possible at this point.

Maybe if Manny beat Danny Jacobs.

Hahaha

 

[Manassamaulerx]

Manny is 3 inches shorter and has 5 inches less reach than Floyd. That is a huge disadvantage.

Do people even appreciate how Manny has to speedily punch his way in against everyone and work twice as hard because he can't jab from the outside? It's a joke how good this guy is considering how much of a disadvantage he has in this weight class in height, reach and arm length. Floyd has never faught someone with longer arms than himself ever.

 

[Guitardude]

Max needs to fix that herpes sore.

my question is what evidence do you have of the above statements for Floyd? what fighters did he avoid? can you walk me through his carefully picked resume and who he avoided?

what window are you using for Manny?

Manny going through 8 divisions is impressive- 'it has never been done before' is somewhat misleading, while accurate. originally they only had 8 divisions.

I like Manny better as a person and a fighter. But, what do we do with Manny's fear of blood tests/ they drain your strength? I'm not sold on his fear of needles excuse, although having a wife with a needle phobia who had tattoos, I'm not buying into the Manny has a tattoo he cant fear needles. His trainer, Roach, hasn't exactly had a spotless record with fighters who get popped.

Pacquiao and company asked Mayweather’s camp, “What would be the penalty if a fighter tested positive?” and “If a fighter tested positive could we keep it a secret for the sake of boxing?” according to an ESPN report by Teddy Atlas. THATS IS ALARMING!

Floyd avoided Manny during the prime years of Manny's career, when he was a whirlwind wrecking everyone. Only when it was obvious that Pacquiao was slowing down did Floyd agree to fight him. Before that, he kept accusing Manny of steroids when he himself used them. There has been ZERO evidence that Pacquiao had ever used steroids.



And your use of the traditional weight divisions in boxing to discredit Manny is BS also. Even IF you only look at the traditional 8 weight divisions, Manny would've won titles in 5 of them - STILL the most in history, by far.

 

[Absolut]

I didn’t discredit the 8 division championship- in fact I said it was impressive. What I did was point out the historical context.