But bro, they aren't trained to KILL

[jensen34]

The difference is the mind set. Those schools are taught to use everything and anything as a weapon. To attack vital areas. To fight dirty. If someone trains for years in a system like this, then guess what? In a self defense situation, he will be looking for those vital areas. He will be conditioned to fight dirty, and to use whatever as a weapon. Of course boxing, and MT and sport systems are useful. They are more than useful. But to say deadly systems are worthless, or to pass them off as school yard bullshit is silly. To say that deadly techniques don't work, is also silly. Those techniques are backed by the nature of the human body.

Have you actually been in the military or are you just talking out your ass? When I was in we barely got any hand 2 hand, you had to train that shit on your own time just like every other civvy. I'd put my money on Roy Jones jr over any spec op.

 

[NAKMUAY18]

Exactly, The chances of two enemy combatants engaging in hand to hand combat these days is next to **** all. Why waste time teaching that when guys could be learning to shoot them instead.

 

[devante]

the military guys skill level isn't that high, unless they have taken steps to improve outside of their training. What i mean by that is a)they have prior/current training they have reached a certain level of competency at or b)they compete in military sponsored competitions (i.e. wrestling boxing mma pankration or grappling).

the guys w/jus the military train and that is it, usually aren't particularly good or particullarly tough in that art; the few guys i saw who didn't fit that were guys who a)came from prior training or built on it outside of basic training or b) competed in miltary competitions,.

 

[SummerStriker]

the military guys skill level isn't that high, unless they have taken steps to improve outside of their training. What i mean by that is a)they have prior/current training they have reached a certain level of competency at or b)they compete in military sponsored competitions (i.e. wrestling boxing mma pankration or grappling).

the guys w/jus the military train and that is it, usually aren't particularly good or particullarly tough in that art; the few guys i saw who didn't fit that were guys who a)came from prior training or built on it outside of basic training or b) competed in miltary competitions,.

To me, the issue is the mind set of the person that is fighting and the environment. A large number of special operations people have killed someone before, are are training with or under someone who has, for the express purpose of killing someone. They aren't training for a hypothetical situation nor are they shielded from any reality. They are training, and more importantly thinking, setting their minds right, for life and death combat, both for weapons they carry and improvised weapons.

So you aren't dealing with someone that is going to put you in an americana. He's going to try and bang your elbow on the concrete, or your head on the concrete, or suddenly and violently use an object on you, or push you down the stairs, or throw you out the window. Sure, he probably wouldn't be anything special in the ring, but put him in a random environment / law of the jungle type of situation, and there won't be any element of fair play, civility, setting up or feeling out. It will be a murder.

 

[DivineComedy]

Its the total skillset of high level military personnel that can make them lethal. You take one spec ops guy, RJJ, give them a knife and throw them in a forest for 3 days to survive, then fight at the end of it. I'm giving it to the spec ops guy. Having a shit ton of bling don't teach you survival and tactical skills. LOL

 

[devante]

To me, the issue is the mind set of the person that is fighting and the environment. A large number of special operations people have killed someone before, are are training with or under someone who has, for the express purpose of killing someone. They aren't training for a hypothetical situation nor are they shielded from any reality. They are training, and more importantly thinking, setting their minds right, for life and death combat, both for weapons they carry and improvised weapons.

So you aren't dealing with someone that is going to put you in an americana. He's going to try and bang your elbow on the concrete, or your head on the concrete, or suddenly and violently use an object on you, or push you down the stairs, or throw you out the window. Sure, he probably wouldn't be anything special in the ring, but put him in a random environment / law of the jungle type of situation, and there won't be any element of fair play, civility, setting up or feeling out. It will be a murder.

i understand that, i was merely speaking of the training aspect of it, tech aspect of it; i have a ton of military friends and have sparred a ton of military guys..many who have been in war situations (older-my age-younger), so i get that point completely.

also-sidenote-their have been instances where marines or navy seals have gotten into it w/mma fighters, on the street and the mma fighters won; not saying this goes across the board, but it has happened on occassion.

 

[devante]

question how many people posting in here have used their skills in a life or death situation or in a self def situation in a fight or against another trained opponent. I just ask cause of the varying degrees of answers i see in this thread or threads in general; to answer it myself, yes to all four...

not trying to make this a who is the bad ass, i am just generally curious about your experiences, that leads you to the conclusions you have reached.

 

[LEGS MAHONEY]

Exactly, The chances of two enemy combatants engaging in hand to hand combat these days is next to **** all. Why waste time teaching that when guys could be learning to shoot them instead.

Yep and its always been like that. Hand to hand training wasnt largely addressed in ancient battle as time was spent on multiple weapons training instead. Though a list of tall tales exist in various styles that claim they were battle tested. Like the Hwoarang warriors using flying kicks to dismount horse riders LOL.

 

[devante]

Its the total skillset of high level military personnel that can make them lethal. You take one spec ops guy, RJJ, give them a knife and throw them in a forest for 3 days to survive, then fight at the end of it. I'm giving it to the spec ops guy. Having a shit ton of bling don't teach you survival and tactical skills. LOL

this as well, its the combination of transeferable skills; they can fight shoot use other weapons and survive in an unstable environment, they is what makes them dangerous..the array of skills.

whereas the fighter can probably do one thing, i.e. fight....and alot of that is based on the sport or env they compete in; that being said, i haven't met alot of military personnel who have said they could take anderson silva or roy jones jr or whoever in a fight...

 

[Babba]

To me, the issue is the mind set of the person that is fighting and the environment. A large number of special operations people have killed someone before, are are training with or under someone who has, for the express purpose of killing someone. They aren't training for a hypothetical situation nor are they shielded from any reality. They are training, and more importantly thinking, setting their minds right, for life and death combat, both for weapons they carry and improvised weapons.

So you aren't dealing with someone that is going to put you in an americana. He's going to try and bang your elbow on the concrete, or your head on the concrete, or suddenly and violently use an object on you, or push you down the stairs, or throw you out the window. Sure, he probably wouldn't be anything special in the ring, but put him in a random environment / law of the jungle type of situation, and there won't be any element of fair play, civility, setting up or feeling out. It will be a murder.

You're talking out of your ass a bit. Take it from someone who was at the russian boarder for over a year and sparred with multiple special forces guys, as well as hand to hand instructors.

As for combat - You don't actually kill someone like in a movie, lol. It doesn't work like you actually know that -you- killed "that" specific person in most cases, it's chaotic. And if you do it's in a situation that is so vastly different from a fist fight that you cannot correlate it at all.

I suppose your counter argument to this will be that it gives you the "killer mindset". It doesn't. There's no mystical killer instinct that can be pin pointed like a skill point in a video game.

I could talk a lot about this but, point being. Guy A going into the army is still guy A, it doesn't give him any skills in "hand to hand" combat other than being more athletic and a bit more tough from a lot of condition training, drilling etc. On the other hand, had he boxed, he would kill his hypothetical army self.

I think to expand a bit on my underlying feelings on the point above, most people getting through and becoming special forces operatives, seals et cetra - are usually natural atheletes and naturally tough guys, not that the army actually makes them like that. they would be that if faith had them working in a bank.

 

[SummerStriker]

You're talking out of your ass a bit. Take it from someone who was at the russian boarder for over a year and sparred with multiple special forces guys, as well as hand to hand instructors.

As for combat - You don't actually kill someone like in a movie, lol. It doesn't work like you actually know that -you- killed "that" specific person in most cases, it's chaotic. And if you do it's in a situation that is so vastly different from a fist fight that you cannot correlate it at all.

I suppose your counter argument to this will be that it gives you the "killer mindset". It doesn't. There's no mystical killer instinct that can be pin pointed like a skill point in a video game.

I could talk a lot about this but, point being. Guy A going into the army is still guy A, it doesn't give him any skills in "hand to hand" combat other than being more athletic and a bit more tough from a lot of condition training, drilling etc. On the other hand, had he boxed, he would kill his hypothetical army self.

I think to expand a bit on my underlying feelings on the point above, most people getting through and becoming special forces operatives, seals et cetra - are usually natural atheletes and naturally tough guys, not that the army actually makes them like that. they would be that if faith had them working in a bank.

haha, fair enough.

 

[SummerStriker]

question how many people posting in here have used their skills in a life or death situation or in a self def situation in a fight or against another trained opponent. I just ask cause of the varying degrees of answers i see in this thread or threads in general; to answer it myself, yes to all four...

not trying to make this a who is the bad ass, i am just generally curious about your experiences, that leads you to the conclusions you have reached.

I've used my self defense skills to survive encounters on the street 3 times, all three against a different pair of guys.

All three times I circled them, put them on one side, and talked my way out of it.

 

[devante]

I've used my self defense skills to survive encounters on the street 3 times, all three against a different pair of guys.

All three times I circled them, put them on one side, and talked my way out of it.

you are now a true master young warrior, unfortunately in my instances due to issues of race, misunderstanding of lifestyle and just generally dealing w/a nutjob; it didn't end that peacefully.

most of the times before the situation got set off, i avoided it w/out incident....

 

[SummerStriker]

you are now a true master young warrior, unfortunately in my instances due to issues of race, misunderstanding of lifestyle and just generally dealing w/a nutjob; it didn't end that peacefully.

most of the times before the situation got set off, i avoided it w/out incident....

No doubt. Being a big white guy probably helped me in at least one case (fuck it man, he looks like security.)

The other two cases, one time it was the two biggest dudes I've ever seen and I literally said, "I can't fight you guys, you are too big," to which they laughed at me, said thanks, and left. The other time, I think the guys just pussed out when I kept dude from sucker punching me.

 

[Bay Area]

you are now a true master young warrior, unfortunately in my instances due to issues of race, misunderstanding of lifestyle and just generally dealing w/a nutjob; it didn't end that peacefully.

most of the times before the situation got set off, i avoided it w/out incident....

What happend in the race incident?

 

[devante]

What happend in the race incident?

which one, the one where someone tried to drown me in a bathroom toilet or the other where someone tried to choke me to death on the street or the other one where someone tried to beat me up so that his friends could tie me up and god knows what.

or are you talking about the reverse race incident, where because i talk a certain way; the people of my race attacked me, assaulted me or tried to jump me (alot of them had weapons).

and that isn't speaking of the instance where someone thought i was gay, because i don't have issues w/people who are; an attempted to beat the sh*t out of me, that happened on a few occassions....

so you let me know which one and i will gladly break it down for you...

an it was alot worse, BEFORE i trained....

 

[SummerStriker]

which one, the one where someone tried to drown me in a bathroom toilet or the other where someone tried to choke me to death on the street or the other one where someone tried to beat me up so that his friends could tie me up and god knows what.

or are you talking about the reverse race incident, where because i talk a certain way; the people of my race attacked me, assaulted me or tried to jump me (alot of them had weapons).

and that isn't speaking of the instance where someone thought i was gay, because i don't have issues w/people who are; an attempted to beat the sh*t out of me, that happened on a few occassions....

so you let me know which one and i will gladly break it down for you...

an it was alot worse, BEFORE i trained....

Devante, you should hire yourself out as a martial arts instructor consultant to point out stupid ideas in SD curriculum.

 

[Bay Area]

which one, the one where someone tried to drown me in a bathroom toilet or the other where someone tried to choke me to death on the street or the other one where someone tried to beat me up so that his friends could tie me up and god knows what.

Christ. These I guess. Or you can PM so as to not thread highjack

 

[devante]

Devante, you should hire yourself out as a martial arts instructor consultant to point out stupid ideas in SD curriculum.

I am not an expert just had situations as a result of who I am ...how I am and how people perceive me; secondly most people don't want to learn how to def themselves they want to learn how to fight.

Alot of times self def is what you say when a) your tired of being picked on or b) when you need an excuse to fight... very few people are in self def situations. Most get into fights that get out of hand cause of weapons or people jumping in...then hey say self def. Due to my personality I am not apt to fight people and due to my various health issues any situation could escalate to life or death...quickly.

Notice my whole theme in sparring or training is to be able to def or escape attacks and be able to do enough that I can neutralize a threat..dissuade an attacker or create an opening where I can get away.

Sparring with trained guys is the medium to get used to contact...attacks..etc; sometimes I try to fight..most of the time I just try to def myself.

 

[Pugilistic]

Bay Area, if you're talking about a hand to hand street fight, you know very little about military martial arts training. Spec ops guys in real life aren't Jason Bourne.