Bullfighter Guard Pass Counters?

[Tankeray]

I'm having difficulty with a particular training partner that LOVES this guard pass- essentially securing pistol grips with both hands on the inside of both knees, pulling back then pushing forward as hard as possible to pass.

He has about 30 pounds on me and I find it difficult to neutralize his power behind the pass. Often times I try to loop my shin and foot over one arm and from there attempt to go to spider guard- it works sometimes but I still get passed because of his grips.

Should I try to just peel his grips first and not let him have them? Are there any effective offensive counters to this pass? What are the weaknesses of this pass that I can exploit to my benefit?

Thanks.

 

[snoop dogg***]

 

[Furious Poo]

You should peel his grips and not let him have them.

 

[netbjjer420]

Lapel drag is a good one. Watch how Xande uses it versus Keenan's torreando attempts at the recent Copa Podio.

 

[Zankou]

Once your opponent gets two tight inside pistol grips you are fucked.

How you prevent that depends almost entirely on the open guard you are attempting to play.

 

[Tankeray]

Thanks a lot for the advice guys. I don't know why I let him have those grips, I really need to prevent that from happening.

@netbjjer- I will watch the Xande/Keenan match again to look for that. Thanks.

@snoop thanks for the maia vid- going to watch this one closely.

@zankou- yeah I play spider guard or de la riva most of the time with open guard. I guess if your opponent gets those inside pistol grips it kills it completely.

 

[Town Biz]

Armdrag.

 

[Shemhazai]

Pistol grips are a bitch, but I like to counter the toreando by going 2 on 1 to break the first grip, putting my foot on the hip on that side, then pummeling inside with my foot on the biceps on the other arm, setting up a Beneil Dariush style spider guard with the 2 on 1 control. From here I usually shoot straight to the triangle.

 

[ILikeDogging]

Armdrag Collar drag Setting up spider guard Strip the grips Or defend the pass Sometimes I'll invert if it's on

 

[Coolnickname]

Pistol grips are a bitch, but I like to counter the toreando by going 2 on 1 to break the first grip, putting my foot on the hip on that side, then pummeling inside with my foot on the biceps on the other arm, setting up a Beneil Dariush style spider guard with the 2 on 1 control. From here I usually shoot straight to the triangle.

Similar to my approach. I go 2 on 1, break that first grip fast. I circle the other foot for the leg lasso/spider guard and try a mix of the tripod sweep or spider guard sweeps depending on what they do. I rarely attack straight into submissions because they're already going somewhere. Their momentum is focused on either powering past still, or they'll panic, defend and pull back. Either way their weight is going somewhere. Good plan homie.

 

[masada555]

What I do is break one of the grips and then IMMEDIATELY armdrag or two-on-one that arm. It's totally worth drilling this sequence 100x or more. gripbreak -> drag. gripbreak -> drag. This allows you to change the game from him imposing his bullfighter pass to him defending your armdrag transition.

I used to be so scared of my training partners grabbing my pants. Now I see it as an opportunity.

ALSO - if you can't break the grip in time at least hold the sleeve. Don't let go and get up on your elbow on the side opposite to which he is passing. You almost turn your back to your opponent, but because you're sitting up and because of the sleeve grip, he can't finalize the pass. Then you scoop your hips back and recover guard.

 

[Uchi Mata]

Once your opponent gets two tight inside pistol grips you are fucked.

How you prevent that depends almost entirely on the open guard you are attempting to play.

True. One problem pure BJJ guys often have that former wrestlers and judoka don't is grip fighting. Many BJJ guys will just let you get your grips in almost any situation, which is ludicrous. If I get the grips I want then I'm probably going to be able to do what I want with you. Fighting grips is your first line of defense against getting thrown on the feet or passed on the ground. You cannot let someone have one more grip than you, or you're in trouble.

 

[theD0N]

I like to match the opponent's bullfighter grips and do this (what Masada555 described):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-FeDvvj-c0I

This is the counter that works best for me. I also use the collar drag and arm drag, but you have to really, really quick to hit those counters.

 

[Jaxx]

True. One problem pure BJJ guys often have that former wrestlers and judoka don't is grip fighting. Many BJJ guys will just let you get your grips in almost any situation, which is ludicrous. If I get the grips I want then I'm probably going to be able to do what I want with you. Fighting grips is your first line of defense against getting thrown on the feet or passed on the ground. You cannot let someone have one more grip than you, or you're in trouble.

Great post.

 

[Tankeray]

Lots of great advice ITT. Much, much appreciated- this shit was really frustrating me.

 

[masada555]

I like to match the opponent's bullfighter grips and do this (what Masada555 described):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-FeDvvj-c0I

This is the counter that works best for me. I also use the collar drag and arm drag, but you have to really, really quick to hit those counters.

That's the one. It's the move that lets you not worry about the grunting tards who jump to their feet from their knees and grab your knees and throw your legs - the "noob" pass. That pass seems almost instinctive to newer, stronger players. I found the noob pass really hard to deal with until I learned this counter. Now it's cake, and I can try to throw attacks at their pant grips knowing that if I miss my attack I'm still gonna be safe.

 

[masada555]

True. One problem pure BJJ guys often have that former wrestlers and judoka don't is grip fighting. Many BJJ guys will just let you get your grips in almost any situation, which is ludicrous. If I get the grips I want then I'm probably going to be able to do what I want with you. Fighting grips is your first line of defense against getting thrown on the feet or passed on the ground. You cannot let someone have one more grip than you, or you're in trouble.

Don't be silly. If you grip me I'll use my aikido wristlocks and you'll be crippled for life in less than a nanosecond.

 

[Tankeray]

That's the one. It's the move that lets you not worry about the grunting tards who jump to their feet from their knees and grab your knees and throw your legs - the "noob" pass. That pass seems almost instinctive to newer, stronger players. I found the noob pass really hard to deal with until I learned this counter. Now it's cake, and I can try to throw attacks at their pant grips knowing that if I miss my attack I'm still gonna be safe.

About the link above: don't you risk getting your back taken with this counter, or is the instinctive thing to roll back to guard with that single grip on the sleeve?

 

[Zankou]

There are some details you need in order to do the collar drag or arm drag correctly. You do not need to be quick, necessarily, but you need to be very technical and also, hopefully, strong. Part of the art of the collar drag/arm drag is letting your opponent take shitty pant grips with his elbows too exposed, his arms too wide, and his posture too weak. But this is not easily explained in words, and takes time to get a feel for.

If you cannot open the elbows, you are not going to be able to collar/arm drag, so if your opponent gets tight inside pistol grips with his elbows kept tight inside, it is too late.

 

[masada555]

About the link above: don't you risk getting your back taken with this counter, or is the instinctive thing to roll back to guard with that single grip on the sleeve?

It's not an instinctive thing, but a deliberate thing: you roll back to guard with that single grip on the sleeve. Now you are in guard with a dominant grip and you can start to attack immediately. In fact one of the combinations on my "stuff to test/drill" list is practicing this move then immediately hitting an armdrag. I've already got the sleeve grip I need, so I expect that this might even actually work