Build the wall.

[D3thr0n3d K1ng]

Walls in history rarely worked, they wont work now. You need effective policies.

 

[Higus]

Thank you Great A.

Reading through that, it does very strongly suggest that a wall is effective at stopping certain types of activity. This makes me wonder a few things.

For the people who are against the wall, why do you think that the wall will prove ineffective, whereas it seems like the Israeli wall is proving effective? Is the effectiveness skewed/false in some way, or is there some other mitigating factor?

There's a lot of reasons. Let's just start with a couple:
1. Scale. The Israeli Wall is only about 250 miles long, whereas the US-Mexico border is about 2,000 miles long. Besides the cost to build, there's also the cost to maintain and guard that huge stretch of terrain vastly different than in Israel. Cost wouldn't be a concern if Mexico was paying for it like Trump campaigned on, but that's a detail that many pro-wall people gloss over.
2. Alternatives. There are more cost effective and humane alternatives that could be made to reduce the negative effects of illegal immigration. People would rather see policy reform instead of a wall. Personally, I would like to see employers more severely punished for hiring illegally. Let's not forget that the cultural reasons for Israel to build a wall are very different than the US's motives.
3. Politics. Construction is going to stop as soon as Trump is out of office. Unless it's completed in the next 2 years, it's probably going to be one of the first executive orders signed by whomever succeeds him. There is very little will to see this job started, yet alone completed by either party.

 

[kenetics]

Do you know what the DEA stands for bro? Nobody in Mexico is addicted to heroin like Americans are, honestly nobody can afford it. People can blame Mexico all they want but it's affluent Americans who keep the drug business afloat.

Exactly.

 

[n...not crazy]

You're talking about a millions in taxpayer money that would be better spent doing, uh... doing whatever the fuck the government does that is good for us. You know, road work and stuff.

Ok I admit, they literally flush most of it down toilets.

 

[FrontNakedChoke]

It is actually that simple, think about it some more. Same issue with illegal immigration. Penalize the businesses who hire undocumented workers and the "problem" goes away.

Sure go tell the heroin addict down the street to just stop buying drugs.

It's THAT simple.

Penalizing business who hire undocumented workers I agree with.

 

[smithwick]

Sure go tell the heroin addict down the street to just stop buying drugs.

An important question to be asked is why is that person an addict? Lack of self control and poverty CAN be fixed. Treating drug addiction with punishment doesn't work, every addict is evidence of this.

 

[Satsui Ryu]

Is the wall still a thing? You'd think the main basis of his campaign would be priority number one. Seems like it has been pushed to the wayside.

 

[ShadowRun]

I don’t know why you guys have fences and lock your doors people can easily jump your fence and break your door down stop wasting your money ...

 

[palerider500]

The wall needs to be built. It is just that simple.

We need to secure our borders.

 

[b-hop]

Its a crime to have a border,LMAO. Even animals in the wildlife have it.
This libtards..

 

[computer fogie]

...You think this is the only tunnel? There are thousands everywhere and much deeper...

...There are thousands of tunnels..

How do you know this?

 

[IIIIIIII]

Before this thread devolves into the piece of burning garbage the OP probably wants it to, does anyone have any data on the effects of border barriers on immigration in other parts of the world? Would be nice to frame this discussion in terms of data rather than the torrent of talking points we're about to have in here.

the u.s. in reality doesn't want illegal immigration to stop. u.s. corporations make too much money on paying illegals lower wages than actual citizens. all the shit politicians say against immigration is put out there to deceive the public. people actually think that it's not possible to stop illegal immigration? really? if the will to stop illegal immigration was actually there, not one illegal immigrant would enter the united states.

 

[D3thr0n3d K1ng]

the u.s. in reality doesn't want illegal immigration to stop. u.s. corporations make too much money on paying illegals lower wages than actual citizens. all the shit politicians say against immigration is put out there to deceive the public. people actually think that it's not possible to stop illegal immigration? really? if the will to stop illegal immigration was actually there, not one illegal immigrant would enter the united states.

This. Too many right-wing business owners/corporations benefit from porous borders, illegal immigration,H-1B visas,etc. Also the oligarchs like people from third-world zhitholes coming in because they will depress wages, and arent concerned about first-world amenities: single-payer, free college, etc. Plus its hard for the labor classes to form a united front when the country is so fractured culturally.

 

[helltoupee]

the immigrants are being sent a message that it is perfectly okay to bypass legal processes through illegal methods.

Maybe if the US respected laws of other countries, especially in Latin America, the idea of legal sanctity would carry more substance.

I have trouble understanding how someone steps foot in his neighbor's house and does whatever the fuck he pleases, then turns around and expects other people to all of a sudden follow rules at his home.

 

[Madmick]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_West_Bank_barrier#Effectiveness

Damn, this is the kind of reality that makes liberals salty as a cracker:

Suicide bombings have decreased since the construction of the barrier.[7][48] Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades, Hamas, and the Palestinian Islamic Jihad have been less able to conduct attacks in Israel, which have decreased in areas where the barrier has been completed.[49][50]

The Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs and the Israel Security Agency report that in 2002, there were 452 fatalities from terrorist attacks. Before the completion of the first continuous segment (July 2003) from the beginning of the Second Intifada, 73 Palestinian suicide bombings were carried out from the West Bank, killing 293 Israelis and injuring over 1,900. After the completion of the first continuous segment through the end of 2006, there were only 12 attacks based in the West Bank, killing 64 people and wounding 445.[6] Terrorist attacks declined in 2007[6] and 2008[51] to 9 in 2010.[52]

 

[helltoupee]

Damn, this is the kind of reality that makes liberals salty as a cracker:

Yep. That 400 some odd miles of border is totally comparable to the almost 2,000 mile continental perimeter we share with Mexico. It's in real populated areas, too.

 

[BillytheFish]

Before this thread devolves into the piece of burning garbage the OP probably wants it to, does anyone have any data on the effects of border barriers on immigration in other parts of the world? Would be nice to frame this discussion in terms of data rather than the torrent of talking points we're about to have in here.

Let's look at Northern Ireland or Israel and West Bank or Gaza....obviously a wall solved all their problems (!). Not like their conflict is ongoing or anything.

And to OP- in what way does a fucking wall prevent a tunnel lol???????

 

[Fawlty]

Seems about right for Trump supporters.

"What? They're making deep tunnels? BUILD A WALL!"

 

[TribalDrumz]

"There's no stopping what can't be stopped, There's no killing what can't be killed"

They cycle will never stop. They will find a way somehow even with the wall. You can Opiod Heroine junkies in USA also.

 

[TheGreatA]

Maybe if the US respected laws of other countries, especially in Latin America, the idea of legal sanctity would carry more substance.

I have trouble understanding how someone steps foot in his neighbor's house and does whatever the fuck he pleases, then turns around and expects other people to all of a sudden follow rules at his home.

With this logic, a felon convicted of burglary should keep his doors unlocked at all times and let everybody come and go as they pleased.

Just because you've committed an offense, doesn't mean that you're "free game" to be committed an offense against. If we operated thus, the world would be a never-ending loop of crimes committed against one another, for vengeance. Which is what it largely has been, in fairness.

But this logic doesn't take us anywhere beyond what we've already witnessed for the past 2000 years.

We have the choice of bringing more order to the world, or to cause more chaos in order to satisfy our immediate impulses. While we will always require some of the latter, so as not to become machines devoid of emotion, I think it is safe to say which alternative is the preferable one in this scenario. An orderly way of immigrating to a country, is far preferable to a chaotic one which serves to create an under-class of people without full citizenship, driving down wages and labour rights for everybody else.

The reason why many European countries have surpassed Americans in labour rights, health services, minimum wages, etc. is because they do not possess an endless supply of labour like America does, imported illegally from struggling countries. Not until recently that is. And of course, our social services were quickly cracked down on, soon after. An American supposed "left-winger", ought to think long and hard about whether they want to continue this charade.

The demands of your domestic labour, particularly those from lower-income brackets, will never be satisfied, so long as they can merely be replaced from somewhere else.