Breaking down Vasyl Lomachenko

[Buddy Revell]

Outside of the bad reffing, one thing show in this fight is that Lomachenko have absolutely no inside game at all, but resort to clinch and pushing instead (which plays right into Salido's gameplan of fight dirty and rough Lomachenko up). For a guy that is lauded as pro-ready by many in this thread and others, thats a rather big hole. He really have no business fighting a 50 fights veteran for a belt in his second outing, regardless of his amateur boxing records (which had an entirely different scoring criteria) or his WSB records either.

Just rewatched the fight and had salido winning more or less as i though he did, 7 rounds to 5 (Lomachenko won a couple early rounds and a few late). Salido did outfight lomachenko on the inside though and he also did a brilliant job of giving loma as small a target as possible. Loma took too long dancing around trying to find angles to punch and salido was giving him none as well as closing the distance. constantly. When Salido started tiring in the middle rounds he started low blowing and holding egregiously (much more so than loma imo) and was not called on it.

I think Lomachenko has the speed workrate and power to hurt salido if they ever fight again but lomachenko would have to resign himself to the fact that he's going to have to open up and not look for clean punches on the outside. All in all i came away impressed with Lomas conditioning and toughness and his humility after the fight. (Looks to have a decent enough chin too) I was a doubter going into the fight but not anymore.

 

[Nuclearlandmine]

With a few more tune up fights after this Lomachenko could be a great fighter with his skills, but now he needed to get back to the drawing board, have a few fights to get used to the pro before actually trying to fight for a title. Bob Arum is really dumb to throw his future star into the wolf for his second fight though, and Loma and his team is also dumb for doing that this way too early.

 

[aries]

3.About punching power - unfortunately, it wasn't that good, IMO. There was HUGE difference at how Salido reacted on Mikey Garcia punches and on Lomachenko punches. Sometimes he would just go through Lom punches like it is nothing.

He was fighting a man 11lbs heavier than him. Salido definitely looked on his way out in the 12th. If the ref hadn't of interfered 'inexplicably' I think we could have seen at least a knockdown.

Anyway, the fight was somewhat close, so it still shows that Lomachenko can be a successful pro fighter. IMO, he will not become second Rigondo or Mayweather - but still can be very good.

Maybe, maybe not. I don't remember looking at either Rigo or Floyd in their second pro fight and thinking these guys are going to be as good as they turned out to be. It was a mistake in taking on an opponent of Salido's calibre in the second fight.

Outside of the bad reffing, one thing show in this fight is that Lomachenko have absolutely no inside game at all, but resort to clinch and pushing instead (which plays right into Salido's gameplan of fight dirty and rough Lomachenko up). For a guy that is lauded as pro-ready by many in this thread and others, thats a rather big hole. He really have no business fighting a 50 fights veteran for a belt in his second outing, regardless of his amateur boxing records (which had an entirely different scoring criteria) or his WSB records either.

I do agree with you he shouldn't have been in there at this stage of his career but I have to feel that a lot of his lack of offense on the inside had to do with him having his left arm pinned low to his side trying to catch the low blows. When he got hit with one it then disrupted his rhythm so he couldn't counter. It's hard to counter when you are having to shuck your hips back to avoid a ball shot. He certainly needs to work on his inside game but it got made to look a lot worse than it was because of the low blows. Someone like Khan has no inside game but Loma has shown pretty decent inside work for an amateur up until this point.

 

[Nuclearlandmine]

Maybe, maybe not. I don't remember looking at either Rigo or Floyd in their second pro fight and thinking these guys are going to be as good as they turned out to be. It was a mistake in taking on an opponent of Salido's calibre in the second fight.

I do agree with you he shouldn't have been in there at this stage of his career but I have to feel that a lot of his lack of offense on the inside had to do with him having his left arm pinned low to his side trying to catch the low blows. When he got hit with one it then disrupted his rhythm so he couldn't counter. It's hard to counter when you are having to shuck your hips back to avoid a ball shot. He certainly needs to work on his inside game but it got made to look a lot worse than it was because of the low blows. Someone like Khan has no inside game but Loma has shown pretty decent inside work for an amateur up until this point.

You did not, what you did however was praising and jumped on his hype train too prematurely ("He's perfect for the pro game. He has the best head movement of any amateur around and the best body punches too.") by looking at his amateur and WSB records (which aren't pros by any stretch btw), like some other fellows in this thread. So don't try to play it off.

I had called that in the beginning that no matter the amount of pre-pro credentials he had it is premature to put him to a pedestal. And it showed. Shit, even his team and Bob Arum bought into the hype by pitting him against a 50 fight vet who proceed to rough him up and make him lost in what appear to be his coming out party (shit Salido is a 4 to 1 underdog....should have put some money on him)

 

[shpboris]

He was fighting a man 11lbs heavier than him. Salido definitely looked on his way out in the 12th. If the ref hadn't of interfered 'inexplicably' I think we could have seen at least a knockdown.


Maybe, maybe not. I don't remember looking at either Rigo or Floyd in their second pro fight and thinking these guys are going to be as good as they turned out to be. It was a mistake in taking on an opponent of Salido's calibre in the second fight.

Even if Lomachenko would lose this fight but display something special - I would be much more optimistic about him being next superstar.

But it looked like his normal style (which I was very excited about in amateurs\WSB) didn't work for him. I had a feeling during this whole fight that he can not find his rhythm. Kind of, he would just do some random stuff.

Also he got hit quite a lot by those looping right hands. That was huge surprise for me ! I still don't have any explanation for that. His reflexes were always great. I mean, you can not have around 400 amateur wins with one loss and have average reflexes. I don't understand at all why that happend to him ...

 

[aries]

You did not, what you did however was praising and jumped on his hype train too prematurely ("He's perfect for the pro game. He has the best head movement of any amateur around and the best body punches too.") by looking at his amateur and WSB records (which aren't pros by any stretch btw), like some other fellows in this thread. So don't try to play it off.

I had called that in the beginning that no matter the amount of pre-pro credentials he had it is premature to put him to a pedestal. And it showed. Shit, even his team and Bob Arum bought into the hype by pitting him against a 50 fight vet who proceed to rough him up and make him lost in what appear to be his coming out party (shit Salido is a 4 to 1 underdog....should have put some money on him)

I still stick by those words. He is possibly the best amateur to come into the pro game. I see nothing to show that he won't make a great pro. He'll learn to deal with rough fighters like Salido and terrible refs. They definitely took on too much in Salido but a split decision is no shame. Even if he'd of won I'd still say he took on too much. That was a rough night for Lomachenko. But I've never see anyone get that close to a world title in their second fight. What I am worried about is his trainer. That could be a real problem.

 

[aries]

Even if Lomachenko would lose this fight but display something special - I would be much more optimistic about him being next superstar.

But it looked like his normal style (which I was very excited about in amateurs\WSB) didn't work for him. I had a feeling during this whole fight that he can not find his rhythm. Kind of, he would just do some random stuff.

Also he got hit quite a lot by those looping right hands. That was huge surprise for me ! I still don't have any explanation for that. His reflexes were always great. I mean, you can not have around 400 amateur wins with one loss and have average reflexes. I don't understand at all why that happend to him ...

I think he started off too slow to make sure he could do the 12. Salido took it to him. And it's much easier to get hit by overhand rights when you are so concerned with keeping your elbow at knee level to deflect shots aimed at your ankles. If you look at gifs half the time Lomachenkos lead hand comes straight in front of his groin in a reflex to stop the low blows. It definitely threw him out of his game. Some Hopkins saavy are what he needed in this fight. A little swan dive and a roll around on the canvas. He could have done that in every round if he'd wanted too and it would have been believable.

 

[shpboris]

Some Hopkins saavy are what he needed in this fight. A little swan dive and a roll around on the canvas.

100% agree with that ! I don't know why his father haven't told him to do so.
In addition, he should have punched Salido low as well.

About him being concerned with low blows and getting hit because of that - after watching some breakdown of this fight with slow motion I tend to agree with you.

But anyway, I didn't like him in this fight. Even despite making a very close fight with a world champion so early in his career ... All those things that I enjoyed in his style before he turned pro - I wasn't able to see them in Salido fight and in his first fight as well.

Hope I will be wrong about his future ...

 

[aries]

100% agree with that ! I don't know why his father haven't told him to do so.
In addition, he should have punched Salido low as well.

About him being concerned with low blows and getting hit because of that - after watching some breakdown of this fight with slow motion I tend to agree with you.

But anyway, I didn't like him in this fight. Even despite making a very close fight with a world champion so early in his career ... All those things that I enjoyed in his style before he turned pro - I wasn't able to see them in Salido fight and in his first fight as well.

Hope I will be wrong about his future ...

Yeah I know what you mean. The small amount of work where he did look good was at distance which he couldn't maintain. I think he shut down mentally but I really think the low blows stopped his game because he barely threw one uppercut the whole fight which Salido was open to the whole fight and that's one of his favourite punches. Even his lead hand was occupied protecting his groin.

 

[Nuclearlandmine]

I still stick by those words. He is possibly the best amateur to come into the pro game. I see nothing to show that he won't make a great pro. He'll learn to deal with rough fighters like Salido and terrible refs. They definitely took on too much in Salido but a split decision is no shame. Even if he'd of won I'd still say he took on too much. That was a rough night for Lomachenko. But I've never see anyone get that close to a world title in their second fight. What I am worried about is his trainer. That could be a real problem.

The sole reason he got close to a world title is because of his hype and his promotion, not through coming through the rank. He didn't really earned his shot. As his fight, everyone in here said he had perfect inside game, perfect outside game, perfect headmovement for the pro...and what showed up in this fight? Even taking into account the dirty tactics and the inept ref he couldn't really do anything when the fight was taking to him from the inside, and only open up when Salido got tired and slowed down. That was already a little too late.

Also, at this point he doesn't need a new trainer yet. However if he's lost another one or two fights, send him off to Roach or Garcia.

 

[aries]

The sole reason he got close to a world title is because of his hype and his promotion, not through coming through the rank. He didn't really earned his shot. As his fight, everyone in here said he had perfect inside game, perfect outside game, perfect headmovement for the pro...and what showed up in this fight? Even taking into account the dirty tactics and the inept ref he couldn't really do anything when the fight was taking to him from the inside, and only open up when Salido got tired and slowed down. That was already a little too late.

Also, at this point he doesn't need a new trainer yet. However if he's lost another one or two fights, send him off to Roach or Garcia.

No brainiac, not that he got the shot, that he very nearly stopped his man and won the fight if it hadn't of been for the ref saving Salido. Salido said it himself, that bodyshot hurt him bad. That's how close he was to being a world champion.

You're not taking into account the low blows, you're dismissing them. Watch what happens when he takes one. BOTH hands are involved in trying to defend, his hips shuck back putting him in a totally compromised posture. He can't fire a counter in time to do anything. They were a massive factor on the inside. How can you let a punch go when both hands are occupied trying to catch shots aimed below the beltline?

What is inside work? Mostly uppercuts to the body and head, which Loma couldn't throw half the time because of the low blows or the well established threat of low blows.

 

[shpboris]

Lomachenko technical breakdown -

[YT]fg1NsCX87k0[/YT]

 

[shpboris]

Breakdown of the last fight - really amazing stuff !

[YT]-nvEZ1Bd2F8[/YT]

 

[a guy]

That's a good video. The one thing I didn't like is him saying turning on the spot is a fundamental error. It only is if your distance is compromised, Piriyapino was turning on the spot too late. If he didn't let Loma initially get close to him and control him then he would have been able to just keep turning to take away the angle. By failing to control distance though he was a step behind.

 

[shpboris]

That's a good video. The one thing I didn't like is him saying turning on the spot is a fundamental error. It only is if your distance is compromised, Piriyapino was turning on the spot too late. If he didn't let Loma initially get close to him and control him then he would have been able to just keep turning to take away the angle. By failing to control distance though he was a step behind.

I believe that the distance thing was kind of implied. I.e once you already got in a bad spot, you better move, than cover up and turn in place.

But, IMO, it would be more interesting to concentrate on how to avoid that situation altogether, than how to deal with its consequences.

 

[shpboris]

Btw, "a guy", I suggest you to watch the whole fight - you will like it.
Besides angles, Loma did A LOT of very interesting things.

P.S.
I like how he mentioned that Loma also knows how to clinch\smother an opponent when needed.

 

[fightingrabbit]

Lomachenko looked awesome that night. No trace of the bad habits that I went on about from his amateur vids. Guy's a bad dude.

 

[shs101]

Breakdown of the last fight - really amazing stuff !

[YT]-nvEZ1Bd2F8[/YT]

good video...on the first part of him taking the angles, he goes into saying how the opponent turns to him on the spot and is very bad and really exagerates how wrong it is to do that. Is this true? Id like to see some other input on this. I never really thought if someone takes an angle you should step away but not face him right away as the video implies. But he / or I may be wrong.....

Also he goes onto saying you shouldn't ever stand in the middle of the ring and catch/block punches? Is this ludacris or true? Who is this guy? His videos are interesting but not so sure if some of the concepts and tactics he tries to tell are true.

 

[a guy]

good video...on the first part of him taking the angles, he goes into saying how the opponent turns to him on the spot and is very bad and really exagerates how wrong it is to do that. Is this true? Id like to see some other input on this. I never really thought if someone takes an angle you should step away but not face him right away as the video implies. But he / or I may be wrong.....

Also he goes onto saying you shouldn't ever stand in the middle of the ring and catch/block punches? Is this ludacris or true? Who is this guy? His videos are interesting but not so sure if some of the concepts and tactics he tries to tell are true.

His issue was the guy trying to turn while at a bad angle and in range. He was saying the guy should have pivoted on this front foot and swung around towards his own right, which would let him move away while turning. By staying in place, he stayed in range to get hit. However, as I was saying, that only applies once he's fucked up and let loma take a good angle.

His point here was dont just stand there letting the other guy tee off on you.

 

[a guy]

I believe that the distance thing was kind of implied. I.e once you already got in a bad spot, you better move, than cover up and turn in place.

But, IMO, it would be more interesting to concentrate on how to avoid that situation altogether, than how to deal with its consequences.

I'm with you, I just think he needed to specify that more clearly. He mentioned it very briefly towards the end but in my opinion he should have made the distinction explicitly early on.

Yes this I agree with exactly. It's like "how do I escape a locked-in armbar?" Well have you tried not getting put in one?