Break All the BJJ Rules and Get Away With It

Discussion in 'Grappling Technique' started by goatfury, Jul 27, 2016.

  1. goatfury

    goatfury Brown Belt

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  2. Ton

    Ton The master of Potato Plata

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    "you fucked up a long time ago" is my personal pet peeve. Yeah, i get that there are things i can do to not get in this position. There are also things i can do to never end up in guard, and that involves never engaging. There should be a strategy for every situation.
     
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  3. Respeezy

    Respeezy Purple Belt

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    I think the rules still stand and you can have success on "lesser" grapplers with inferior timing and or technique ( at least in those positions or transitions) while breaking them. But you are jeopardizing too much for too little imo if you are on the same level or even worse. / Just my opinion on it.
     
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  4. Uchi Mata

    Uchi Mata Preaching the gospel of heel hooks and left kicks

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    It's overused, but you do reach a point where you're fucked and worrying about what to do then other than 'wait for an opening, and if he doesn't give you one, tap' is a waste of time. I think the spirit of the comment is more that if you're asking what to do when your opponent has a sunk RNC you're worrying about the wrong thing.
     
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  5. Uchi Mata

    Uchi Mata Preaching the gospel of heel hooks and left kicks

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    The problem with rules in grappling is that they're necessarily oversimplifications of more complex ideas. 'Don't turn your back' is really 'Don't turn your back unless you have the arm like this or the leg here or his weight is past your hips etc.' but that's too much for a white belt so you get simple rules. Almost always when a rule can be broken consistently in specific situations, it's because the rule you know is an oversimplification of the real rule.
     
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  6. Russky

    Russky Green Belt

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    Being small I cannot rely on posture in the guard to break it open or prevent submission. I have to attack from inside the guard and use it as guard opener. Or give them a chance to attack and set up my guard pass. Broken posture -> Ezekiel -> Tozi pass. Broken posture -> thrust choke -> guard opening.
     
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  7. fanboysareevil

    fanboysareevil Green Belt

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    Russky your perspective is the exact opposite of most small guys I've met. More power to you if it works, but a lot of the time those are things you see more at heavier weights.
     
  8. Leglockaaa

    Leglockaaa White Belt

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    I think that style is good for submission only just going it taking chances. But for MMA position is real important because of strikes.
     
  9. BJJ_Rage

    BJJ_Rage Gold Belt

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    I myself dont like to stay in posture once in guard, I like to go chest to chest and work from there.
     
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  10. Balto

    Balto Silver Belt

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    Yep.

    The Tozi pass is not a "no posture" pass. It's a pass with good posture in the horizontal plane vs the standard vertical one. But the good posture is still there.

    It is the same with most other "rules violations." They're actually not violations, but not everyone can see why yet.
     
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  11. Balto

    Balto Silver Belt

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    The higher level strategy really is "you fucked up a long time ago" though. That's why so many guys keep saying it.

    If a technique has an easy counter, we don't consider it a legit technique. For example, cross choking from guard is not considered legit because it has a consistent counter. That doesn't mean cross choke from guard will never work; it just means that the counter is too good for it to be relied upon consistently as a legit technique. It is the same for crossing your feet from the back, etc.

    But legit techniques really don't have counters. At white belt and blue belt, it might seem like they have counters because you can count on the guy using them against you to make several large technical mistakes that will give you holes to counter. But this is more of a blunder than an actual weakness in the technique that you can exploit.

    At purple belt and up, legit techniques start to get close to 100% effectiveness, especially in the same weight class. So the whole match becomes less about countering legit techniques and more about setting things up so that your opponent cannot use any legit techniques.

    For example, my whole guard passing strategy is to never end up in guard. Here's what I mean:

    The match starts. I grip fight and don't allow my opponent any significant control. So my opponent pulls with a minor grip. I break this grip off because it was no control in the first place.

    Now I'm standing, and my opponent is sitting. I have to engage. Rather than just walking into guard, I will attempt to deny him any legit guard at all.

    My first grip is going to be low on his pants by the ankle. From here, he can't do much. He can't reach my legs yet. My grip is too low to be put in spider guard or lasso guard. Does he have a guard here? I guess, but it's not a legit guard. It won't work well.

    Then I can pressure in from here. His other leg will come over to try to lasso, put the DLR hook, go to X guard, etc. But I can prevent him from establishing any of these guards by being prepared and holding it off. I will keep on pressuring, moving side to side, moving up and down.

    Eventually I can get to a point where I have both of his legs controlled, both of his feet off of me dangling in the air, and he has no grips on my legs. This "guard" is not in any DVD because it's not a legit technique. He's about to get passed. I have effectively denied him guard by never getting into it in the first place.

    Now if I had just let him establish a proper lasso guard right away? At the black belt level, I'm almost guaranteed to get swept before I can get out of it. That's because the lasso guard is a legit technique, and the chances of a black belt opponent capitalizing on it are close to 100%.

    So really after a certain point in your development, the entire roll becomes about denying your opponent the chance to use any legit techniques against you. This is possible to do, although against a good opponent it's far from easy.

    Every time I roll with a black belt, I know that if I give him a shot at a legit technique, he will probably take it and make me pay. Even if I get lucky and he makes some mistake, I still have to act as if he won't make the same mistake again. Because chances are he probably won't.

    So the entire roll becomes about who can give himself the most chances at legit technique while denying the other guy chances. And the roll starts right at the initial grip.

    I say "don't get caught in the first place" all the time, and that's what I mean by it.
     
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  12. Ton

    Ton The master of Potato Plata

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    I get what you're saying. The first few paragraphs especially were very well put ( i did read the whole thing).

    And absolutely, the ideal scenario is to never get in a compromising situation in the first place. The reason that saying pisses me off at times, is when i watch pros get out of fully locked submissions. The most vivid example i have is Tonon vs Kron; Arm bar is a legit technique, and that arm bar was tight. It was also put on by one of the best practitioners out there. Yet Tonon got out.

    If Tonon went his whole career without asking "well, what if i do get here and someone does have a fully locked armbar on me.. what do i do?" , that match would not be nearly as competitive.
     
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2016
  13. esteven

    esteven Blue Belt

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    Jiu-jitsu isn't a system of "rules;" it's a system of heuristics. When those heuristics are treated as such, they're what give us the abilty to use an immensely complex collection of techniques and strategies without becoming overly committed to rigid dogma (see: so many martial arts). If you start to take rough (though powerful) heuristics as gospel, you're going to leave a lot of effective options behind.
     
  14. JosephDredd

    JosephDredd Gold Belt

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    Can you elaborate? I've been struggling to make my Tozi pass work.
     
  15. loyalyolayal

    loyalyolayal Steel Belt

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    My grappling philosophy is catching people in transition. I never really put much importance in positions.
     
  16. JosephDredd

    JosephDredd Gold Belt

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    Hey, I followed your link to your Tozi tutorial and I hope you don't mind answering a question for me.

    Originally I was doing it as you suggest, by keeping my elbow low and pinning their hip, but I found really strong guys would wiggle until they could get both arms on my face and then I'd lose that particular battle of strength.

    So I started doing it like this...



    ... but the elbow-low-on-his-hip feels more natural for me, so if I can get that one to work that's the one I'd prefer to use.

    Any tips to prevent them from pushing your head off-centre?
     
  17. Balto

    Balto Silver Belt

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    Yeah there are always exceptions. Sometimes you can get out.

    Most of the time you can't, but it sounds like you understand that. So yes, if you do end up in the situation, you still need to fight because you might get out.
     
  18. Balto

    Balto Silver Belt

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    Bad posture is rounded back, head forward, spine out of alignment, etc.

    Good posture is straight back, head straight, spine well aligned, etc.

    The Tozi pass posture has the good posture characteristics. It is just in a horizontal plane driving forward into the guy. But the posture has to be strong or else you get twisted up easily and countered.

    Try driving your forehead into the guy's jaw/chin to drive his head off line and ruin his own posture. Posture applies from bottom guard too. If the guy on bottom has a strong posture and body alignment, it will be tough to pass him with the Tozi. But use the Tozi pressure to twist his spine up, push his head off line, etc. and it gets much easier.
     
  19. JosephDredd

    JosephDredd Gold Belt

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    Ah, gotcha. That makes sense. Thanks so much!
     
  20. ChrmnMa0

    ChrmnMa0 Black Belch

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    Bad posture can be a result of osteoporosis
     

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