Boxing vs MT

It's absolutely true that the Thai clinch is greatly impacted by takedowns and the cage in MMA. Learning the inner working of the thai clinch (especially with underhooks & overhooks, and along the fence) can be very useful for MMA though, and when you see a big discrepancy in thai clinch ability (especially when both guys are strikers), then you can get results like Silva/ Franklin. Anderson really wasn't doing that much better striking at range than Rich, but his far superior striking from the clinch was what gave Ando such a huge edge.

I think the amount of K-1 style kickboxers to do at least moderately well, compared to the amount of boxers & Nak Muays to do well in MMA speaks volumes. Crocop, Rutten, Hardonk, Barry, Schilt, Reem, Manhoef, etc are all dutch style kickboxers, how many boxers could you name? Davis & Lytle? Noons? And how many Thai boxers? Malaipet (3-3 in MMA), Vuy Colossa (2-0), Ole Laursen (5-2), _____?

I think the record of Dutch kickboxers speaks for itself, as far as effective MMA striking styles.
 
A strong clinch (Thai or Greco based) is definitely a big advantage and something that should be encouraged for MMA.
 
It's absolutely true that the Thai clinch is greatly impacted by takedowns and the cage in MMA. Learning the inner working of the thai clinch (especially with underhooks & overhooks, and along the fence) can be very useful for MMA though, and when you see a big discrepancy in thai clinch ability (especially when both guys are strikers), then you can get results like Silva/ Franklin. Anderson really wasn't doing that much better striking at range than Rich, but his far superior striking from the clinch was what gave Ando such a huge edge.

I think the amount of K-1 style kickboxers to do at least moderately well, compared to the amount of boxers & Nak Muays to do well in MMA speaks volumes. Crocop, Rutten, Hardonk, Barry, Schilt, Reem, Manhoef, etc are all dutch style kickboxers, how many boxers could you name? Davis & Lytle? Noons? And how many Thai boxers? Malaipet (3-3 in MMA), Vuy Colossa (2-0), Ole Laursen (5-2), _____?

I think the record of Dutch kickboxers speaks for itself, as far as effective MMA striking styles.

Good points.

To be fair though, there have been allot of traditional MT style fighters that do well in MMA! They just learn to make the adjustments.

I.E: Wandy, Aldo, Shogun, Alves and Anderson Silva all come from a more Traditional MT training base (anyone from Chute Box is more traditional MT), they just made the necessary adjustments.

Boxers- Marcus Davis, Alessio Sakara, Noons, Villaseynor, Garcia, Diaz bros, Spencer Fisher, etc..... all have some competitive boxing experience. Not top level by any means, but still competitive boxing.
 
ok, so Florian is retarded when he says his game is now 80% boxing and 20% muay thai?

Shogun said he worked on his boxing a lot for the rematch.

Semtex took tons of fools with straight-up boxing.

Yeah, I know it's all integrated. of course, MMA is MMA.

but what is extremely retarded is bringing up Frankie and GSP to counter the bj penn argument when they now use boxing as their primary striking art.

IMO, there's a difference between focusing on the hands, and "boxing". Real boxing, you stand from a more linear stance, shoulder covering your face, you don't have kicks/ knees/ elbows/ takedowns to consider, and things like bobbing, weaving, shoulder rolling, etc can be implemented. Just improving your hands does not make your game "boxing". Even if 80% of your strikes are punches, that doesn't mean you're 80% boxer.

Yes, the hands become more important in MMA, but it is not boxing. If you check kicks, open up your stance, train knees & elbows, you are not a boxer.

Saying that Semtex has "taken tons of fools with straight-up boxing" is completely inaccurate, even if you're referencing the Kampmann & Hazelett knockouts, because of the multiple thai clinches that Martin & Paul engaged in, or the leg kicks that Daley threw at Hazelett. Sure, Semtex hands are packed with dynamite, but he is by no means a straight boxer, nore have any of his wins been because of straight boxing. It ceases to be straight boxing when kicks, knees, elbows etc are allowed.

Same with Shogun- of course his hands have improved, but that's just one aspect of his kickboxing game. His KO over Chuck was preceded by several hard leg & body kicks. His KO over Lyoto was a kickboxing combo he trained, in which he feinted the leg kick, and countered Lyoto's typical straight left response. That's not "improving his boxing," that's improving his striking in general.

When Buakaw worked on his hands prior to the '06 K-1 MAX WGP, leading to a stunning KO of Sato, it wasn't because Buakaw used his boxing, he improved his hands (which are an aspect of kickboxing), not his boxing.

At this point it's just a semantics debate, but I just can't personally agree with people talking about "boxing", in an MMA or MT/ Kickboxing context.

Frank Edgar & GSP are boxers like Vitali Klitschko is a kickboxer. The only thing accurate about boxing being Edgar's base is that boxing was the first striking art he trained in. When he first came to the UFC and debuted against Tyson, he got the shit kicked out of his legs; he's since developed a very polished and versatile striking game.

This goes along with why it bugs me when people say that MMAists and/ or Kickboxers/ Nak Muays have bad boxing. It's not even applicable, the hands are used differently in Kickboxing & MMA. It's like saying that Reggie Bush has poor track skills.
 
Good points.

To be fair though, there have been allot of traditional MT style fighters that do well in MMA! They just learn to make the adjustments.

I.E: Wandy, Aldo, Shogun, Alves and Anderson Silva all come from a more Traditional MT training base (anyone from Chute Box is more traditional MT), they just made the necessary adjustments.

Boxers- Marcus Davis, Alessio Sakara, Noons, Villaseynor, Garcia, Diaz bros, Spencer Fisher, etc..... all have some competitive boxing experience. Not top level by any means, but still competitive boxing.

Oh, I know that there have been many successful MT fighters in MMA. I'm just talking about people who started their pro combat sports careers in Thai boxing/ Kickboxing/ boxing.
 
It's absolutely true that the Thai clinch is greatly impacted by takedowns and the cage in MMA. Learning the inner working of the thai clinch (especially with underhooks & overhooks, and along the fence) can be very useful for MMA though, and when you see a big discrepancy in thai clinch ability (especially when both guys are strikers), then you can get results like Silva/ Franklin. Anderson really wasn't doing that much better striking at range than Rich, but his far superior striking from the clinch was what gave Ando such a huge edge.

I think the amount of K-1 style kickboxers to do at least moderately well, compared to the amount of boxers & Nak Muays to do well in MMA speaks volumes. Crocop, Rutten, Hardonk, Barry, Schilt, Reem, Manhoef, etc are all dutch style kickboxers, how many boxers could you name? Davis & Lytle? Noons? And how many Thai boxers? Malaipet (3-3 in MMA), Vuy Colossa (2-0), Ole Laursen (5-2), _____?

I think the record of Dutch kickboxers speaks for itself, as far as effective MMA striking styles.

You and ssullivan seem to have quite a bit of knowledge on this topic so i'm gonna ask a question i've been thinking of for a while:
lots of people discredit boxers/boxing in its attempts/lack of attempts to cross over to mma. I always felt like it doesn't make financial sense for a b oxer to tread into MMA as opposed to wrestlers/MT practitioners/Kickboxers because there are more opportunities in boxing than those arts and MMA.

This is not an attempt to discredit any fighting art or say one is better than another.
Opinions?
 
It's absolutely true that the Thai clinch is greatly impacted by takedowns and the cage in MMA. Learning the inner working of the thai clinch (especially with underhooks & overhooks, and along the fence) can be very useful for MMA though, and when you see a big discrepancy in thai clinch ability (especially when both guys are strikers), then you can get results like Silva/ Franklin. Anderson really wasn't doing that much better striking at range than Rich, but his far superior striking from the clinch was what gave Ando such a huge edge.

I think the amount of K-1 style kickboxers to do at least moderately well, compared to the amount of boxers & Nak Muays to do well in MMA speaks volumes. Crocop, Rutten, Hardonk, Barry, Schilt, Reem, Manhoef, etc are all dutch style kickboxers, how many boxers could you name? Davis & Lytle? Noons? And how many Thai boxers? Malaipet (3-3 in MMA), Vuy Colossa (2-0), Ole Laursen (5-2), _____?

I think the record of Dutch kickboxers speaks for itself, as far as effective MMA striking styles.

Malaipet has the best credentials when it comes to MT, and hasn't had a good run in MMA .These crossover boxers are just journeymen at best. You will never see a top boxer in his prime crossing over to MMA due to the money. The closest thing was Jeremy Williams and he is 5-0 in MMA.
 
You and ssullivan seem to have quite a bit of knowledge on this topic so i'm gonna ask a question i've been thinking of for a while:
lots of people discredit boxers/boxing in its attempts/lack of attempts to cross over to mma. I always felt like it doesn't make financial sense for a b oxer to tread into MMA as opposed to wrestlers/MT practitioners/Kickboxers because there are more opportunities in boxing than those arts and MMA.

This is not an attempt to discredit any fighting art or say one is better than another.
Opinions?

Well, here's the thing about that. Boxers only make more money than MMA fighters at the very height of the sport. Guys like Mayweather, Pacman, Klitschko, etc all make in the millions per fight. That said, at the lower levels, i'd say the paydays are comparable (if not less than) MMA.

It wouldn't make sense for a Manny Pacquiao to cross over to MMA, because he's making so much money and is at the top of his sport. Transitioning to MMA would require a great deal of effort, time, planning, etc and he would be doing it for less money, with no guarantees of success.

However, you see a guy like Ricardo Mayorga who is reasonably within his prime, and has held & fought for world titles against the best in the boxing world. He was willing to fight an experienced MMAist like Din Thomas for the money a smaller org like Shine was offering, so what does that say about the payscale of boxing? There's definitely still money to be had in boxing, but for all but the best of the best, the money in MMA is just as good.

But the problem is, it's quite hard to make the switch over from boxing to MMA. Alot of it, IMO, has to do with the style and attributes of a fighter. Aggressive, athletic punchers with solid builds like Davis, Noons, Lytle etc can do well in MMA, but I don't think that finesse counterpunchers, and guys who take advantage of the technical, boxing specific strategies would do very well.

I think a Manny Pacquiao or a Miguel Cotto would do much better than a Money Mayweather or Roy Jones (or James Toney, for that matter).
 
Well, here's the thing about that. Boxers only make more money than MMA fighters at the very height of the sport. Guys like Mayweather, Pacman, Klitschko, etc all make in the millions per fight. That said, at the lower levels, i'd say the paydays are comparable (if not less than) MMA.

It wouldn't make sense for a Manny Pacquiao to cross over to MMA, because he's making so much money and is at the top of his sport. Transitioning to MMA would require a great deal of effort, time, planning, etc and he would be doing it for less money, with no guarantees of success.

However, you see a guy like Ricardo Mayorga who is reasonably within his prime, and has held & fought for world titles against the best in the boxing world. He was willing to fight an experienced MMAist like Din Thomas for the money a smaller org like Shine was offering, so what does that say about the payscale of boxing? There's definitely still money to be had in boxing, but for all but the best of the best, the money in MMA is just as good.

But the problem is, it's quite hard to make the switch over from boxing to MMA. Alot of it, IMO, has to do with the style and attributes of a fighter. Aggressive, athletic punchers with solid builds like Davis, Noons, Lytle etc can do well in MMA, but I don't think that finesse counterpunchers, and guys who take advantage of the technical, boxing specific strategies would do very well.

I think a Manny Pacquiao or a Miguel Cotto would do much better than a Money Mayweather or Roy Jones (or James Toney, for that matter).

You could say the same for kickboxers. Aerts, and Bonjasky will not do well in MMA. Kickboxers with good hands and boxing will do better. Mayorga is not in his prime anymore and went to MMA to be a draw, because in boxing he is not(anymore).
 
Malaipet has the best credentials when it comes to MT, and hasn't had a good run in MMA .These crossover boxers are just journeymen at best. You will never see a top boxer in his prime crossing over to MMA due to the money. The closest thing was Jeremy Williams and he is 5-0 in MMA.

Well, to counter the JW Argument, Ole Laursen (who is an elite kickboxer) is 5-2 in MMA, with wins over similar competition, and losses to Genki Sudo (who he took the distance) & Caol uno. It's more of a stylistic thing, and has to do with preparation. Jeremy Williams trained with a top MMA camp and even subbed someone, Malaipet looked like he'd trained Jits at an LA Fitness once a week for a few months.

Vuy Colossa is a top Farang Thai Boxer and has beaten Yod, and is 2-0 in MMA right now. It's all relative my man.
 
Malaipet has the best credentials when it comes to MT, and hasn't had a good run in MMA .These crossover boxers are just journeymen at best. You will never see a top boxer in his prime crossing over to MMA due to the money. The closest thing was Jeremy Williams and he is 5-0 in MMA.

James Toney? just sayin..... definitely not his "prime" but he was a HW world champ at the time.

Top boxers still do make too much money to cross over to MMA, but I think those days will soon come to an end. There are not too many top level boxers left that can demand the kind of PPV dollars to make those big fight purses. Truth be told, Manny, Floyd, Mosely, Cotto and Klitscko (debatable) are the only guys left who really draw big $ fights. The sad thing about boxing is there are some excellent fighters out there that just dont get the hype to draw the money like these guys do. I.E: Paul Williams, Tim Bradley, Sergio Martinez, Gamboa, Victor Ortiz, Amir Khan, etc..... all these guys mentioned plus many more are exceptionally good fighters with promise equal to or as great as the others mentioned. Problem is, boxing has let the promoters take control of the sport. Boxing is not ruined, there are still some exceptionally talented guys out there. But the bureaucratic atmosphere, politics, promoters, managers and gaming organizations have driven the "casual" fans away from the sport and only the purists remain. There are not as many big draws in boxing because the best dont fight the best unless an "agreement" can be reached, and we know how that works out thus far! MMA has gained popularity because the fans still get the fights they want to see, more often than not. So long as MMA can remain controlled by 1 or 2 organizations, it will continue to grow. Lets not forget, that used to be the case in boxing, a unified belt was reality.... now seems every top fighter is a champion in some organization. Just start picking vowels and arrange them in any order you choose, chances are, that is a boxing organization with a belt holder! Unfortunately, MMA will eventually become it's own worst enemy in just the same way, because the fighters will start to follow the money, even if that means not giving the fans what they want. We saw it with Fedor, Nick Diaz, etc.... Next on that list will be Allistair Overeem, can the UFC get him? doubt it! MMA will eventually have to give in to capitalism, just as boxing did. Good news, the money in MMA is not so much in the fighting as it is in the sponsors, products and brand recognintion. That may be the saving grace, but it remains to be seen, get a couple more successful organization in MMA with enough draw to bring in big PPV dollars, well....... who knows what becomes of MMA? Rant Ended
 
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You could say the same for kickboxers. Aerts, and Bonjasky will not do well in MMA.

Strange you say that, they both got the shit beat out of them in K1 by an MMA HW champ......... Overeem. Wonder how Badr Hari would fare in MMA?....
 
^Well, I used to think that it would be better for there to be a major competitor to the UFC (IE Strikeforce), but in retrospect, that was PRIDE, and their irresponsibilities ended up costing them. Hopefully the UFC can avoid this.

But I think having all the top guys under 1 banner might be a good thing. Strikeforce holding down their Showtime spot, and hopefully their CBS deal, is only more exposure for the sport, but at this time I tend to think that SF needs to work it's ass off to solidify it's #2 status. Bellator is closing in on them, and developing prospects much better than SF. Either they merge, or battle it out amongst themselves, but the only problem is that the top fighters likely just want to be in the UFC, and will be locked into exclusive clauses if/ when they win the title in BFC or SF.

As a fan, my primary concern is seeing the best fight the best, to see great fights. And with guys like Alvarez & Melendez unable to fight eachother, and with their organizations running out of worthy challengers for them, it goes to show that maybe less is more.
 
To the TS, start with MThai if you have a quality gym available. If only quality boxing is available to you, go with that

Glove up, train, have fun, get better
 
I 'd say something more like a western style kickboxing /dutch kickboxing would be the best .Their hands training is not as good as boxing but way better then traditional MT .

That being said like someone mentioned here ,most North American MT(MMA) gyms probably incorporate more western boxing style of punching into their training.So i assume its just the school you choose. I'd say look for an MT school that is known for having fighters with good hands .


By the way not sure where you're from but in the city where i live(Toronto) ,if you join an mma gym most offer seperate boxing/mt/bjj classes under one membership not to mentio the mma class.
 
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fitness & self defense only(No mma aspirations): MT or boxing?
 
I think the amount of K-1 style kickboxers to do at least moderately well, compared to the amount of boxers & Nak Muays to do well in MMA speaks volumes. Crocop, Rutten, Hardonk, Barry, Schilt, Reem, Manhoef, etc are all dutch style kickboxers, how many boxers could you name? Davis & Lytle? Noons? And how many Thai boxers? Malaipet (3-3 in MMA), Vuy Colossa (2-0), Ole Laursen (5-2), _____?

I think the record of Dutch kickboxers speaks for itself, as far as effective MMA striking styles.

for traditional mt you left out ramba who is 8-2 and the current shooto straw weight champ
also yasubey enemoto who started off training in mt and is now in the finals of the src ww gp
and yasubey used the clinch to dominate his last opponent
 
^Good call, forgot about Somdet. Unfortunately I haven't seen Enomoto but i'll look into his work
 
I'd rather have two choppers than eight knives.

you talk like that cuz you have never eaten a Knee that resembles a Tank, a Fast High Kick that will be a Sniper or Middle and Low Kicks which will look like you got bombed by an F 16.

The bobbing and gay shoulder rolling won't be that effective with a Muay Thai Fighter, that is why Boxers lose to Muay Thai Fighters cuz they got 2 F16s ( Low and Body Kicks ), 2 Tanks ( Knees ) and 2 Choppers, now you make the choice.

Boxing is so freaking overrated.

p.s: I love boxing but I don't like when people make this kind of lame comparisons.
 
I learnt to box before muay thai and it honestly did help.
I would try boxing first as a base then maybe move on to Muay thai later?
 
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