Boxing tradition is go up in weight grappling is stay in weight

Discussion in 'UFC Discussion' started by georgejjr, Aug 11, 2015.

  1. georgejjr

    georgejjr Black Belt

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    One issue that comes up with Cyborg-Rousey is who should change weight - and tradition is often brought into it. In boxing the tradition is the lighter fighter goes up, and people are applying that to MMA.

    But in grappling the tradition is to stay in your weight. There have been several wrestlers and judoka who've won multiple Olympic gold medals (and world championship gold medals), and very few of them have gone up in weight.

    For instance, one of the all time great freestyle wrestlers, Satiev (google him, absolutely dominant), won 3 Olympic gold, 6 world championship gold, all at the same weight. No one in wrestling expected him to go up to the next weight division. It hasn't hurt his legacy in the slightest, there's no asterisk beside his name for not trying a heavier division in the next Olympics etc.

    Or take Rousey's own judo weight division. Ueno (twice Olympic gold, twice world championship gold, very dominant - better than Rousey both on the ground and on her feet), never changed weight.

    You can go through wrestling and judo multiple champions, and only find a handful who changed weight (Yoshida being one of the few).

    So for a grappler like Rousey, it makes more sense to follow grappling tradition than boxing tradition - especially since if you throw a pure boxer against a pure grappler into MMA, the grappler is going to win more often than not ... its a better pure tradition for MMA.

    And what's the UFC tradition for champs? Its very strongly to stay in your weight division until you're no longer champ. The only champ who, while champ, went up to fight a heavier current champ was Penn when he fought GSP at 170. That's it, in 20 years. Aldo never did it. Hughes never did it. GSP never did it. Jones never did it. Liddell never did it. Barao never did it. Anderson went up, but not to fight a champ (didn't fight Liddel, Machida or Jones, the LHW champs during his reign).

    Once you lose the UFC title, you might change weight divisions. Meaning, once Rousey loses her 135 title (it'll happen, it happens to everyone) she'd be following the UFC tradition to change weight (though as often going down as up).

    Going up in weight is mainly a boxing tradition, it doesn't translate at all to grappling, and not much to MMA either. If Rousey came from boxing it might apply to Rousey-Cyborg, but she comes from judo, and like wrestling, its very rarely done. Dominant champs are in the same weight divisions Olympics after Olympics, instead of going up in weight.
     
  2. After the ass whooping that took place during the UFC's first and only Battle of Champions, you know why no one has attempted it since.

    No one wants that type of humiliation.
     
  3. GoldenAzazel

    GoldenAzazel General Manager of PWD Platinum Member

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    This is a solid argument for Rousey, but I have a feeling Cyborg fans will not be swayed in their point of view and still insist Ronda is ducking her.

    Even if this argument wasn't in place it still wouldn't make sense for Ronda to move up to a non existent weight in the UFC to accommodate a cheater.
     
  4. GENERAL AZUL

    GENERAL AZUL Man in black

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    In my opinion size/strenght can be more advantageous in grappling than in boxing.
     
  5. Project 86

    Project 86 Silver Belt

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    the problem is cyborg cant stay busy with legit contenders so she needs the fight more than ronda

    ronda can take on tate again,holly holm,amanda nunes,julianna pena, and zingano again

    who can cyborg fight at 145
     
  6. MDWv2

    MDWv2 Yellow Belt

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    It's an unfair blanket statement to say grapplers don't go up in weight. You can give as many people who stayed at the same weight, but there's also grapplers who move up. Look at Kyle Dake, he won 4 NCAA championships going up a weight division every year. In addition, the weight classes in boxing are much closer than in grappling.
     
  7. Tooth and Nail

    Tooth and Nail Forever Brocktober

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    Cyborg has no leverage here.

    Ronda is a draw even if her opponents are severely outclassed by her, so she will continue to make the UFC lots of money as long as she keeps winning.

    There is no motivation for Ronda or the UFC to have her move up in weight.

    The only option is for Cyborg to figure out a way to make 135.
     
  8. So Fresh

    So Fresh Purple Belt

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    It is MMA tradition to cut as much weight as you can so you can fight UNDER your weight and have a strength/ reach advantage ;)
     
  9. So Fresh

    So Fresh Purple Belt

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    but if you're the champ and you're cleaning out the division or you wanna call someone out you'll gonna have to fight above your weight

    then you'll gain more respect
    to me it is all about respect, if you want more respect, you'll gonna have to fight ppl above your weight, if you wanna fight other champs, you're gonna have to move up, or meet up at a catchweight

    look at BJ Penn, if he would've never gone up in weight ppl still would respect him for his accomplishments
    but when he got up in weight, defeated the current champ, he gained MORE respect
     
  10. M Raid K

    M Raid K Black Belt

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    I think, right now Weidman has a good chance of beating Cormier, Aldo may beat RDA and Mighty Mouse would give a stiff test to Dillashaw. It's not a constant that lighter champion can't beat the heavier one.

    I hate when one hiccup prevents all possible future attempts. There were 3 title fights at UFC 33 all of which went 5 rounds and were unexciting. That dissuaded UFC from ever putting together 3 title fights on one card which I think is wrong. Book RR, Werdum and Weidman vs whoever is #1 contender in their divisions, and you're guaranteed at least 2 finishes between them and entertaining fights overall.
     
  11. FenoxSky

    FenoxSky Brown Belt

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    I don't think it's a matter of boxing vs grappling as it is more of a Championship format vs Tournament format, and the culture the different formats generate around it.
    In Judo/BJJ there is no world champion, there is no one holding a belt, there's only an incumbent champion, who will enter the next year tournament (or any tournament for that matter) in equal grounds to his competition (other than the favorable seeding that comes with being ranked), thus, number of titles are highly valued, and consistency is celebrated. If you take a look of what athletes are considered the greatest on this culture, they are the ones that won the biggest amount of titles. (This also holds true for Karate and TKD, which are striking arts, but also use a tournament system).
    In contrast, what we call as prize fighting (boxing, pro kick boxing, muay thai and now MMA), have a person hold a title and defend it, this person achieving the undisputed champion status. In this culture number of title defenses are highly valued, but in the "search of greatness" that fans like to see, going up in a weight class for the bigger challenge is what is by far the most celebrated thing, specially when divisions are considered cleaned-up and the challenge seems gone for the champion.

    It's good to consider that these different formats are also molded by the competitions themselves, the tournament format is adopted when the participants can match up against each other multiple times per night and in a higher number per year. While the championship format is used in combat sports that are more dangerous, therefore, you can't have fighters facing each other all the time, resulting in a single victory being a much more decisive result in the career of a competitor.

    Sorry if this is kinda hard to read, my english is kinda rusty for these kind of lengths haha.
     
  12. BR

    BR Purple Belt

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    MMA Fighters need to test themselves. If they fail, hey move back down. True there are more weights in boxing, but thats in part because weights in boxing start out smaller. Manny Pacquaio started out at 108 lbs and ended up withing the 154 title. Let that sink in. You cant tell me it's more dangerous for a guy/girl to lose via arm bar or tapping than it is to get you head beat in for 12 rounds. Manny while winning the 154 title, felt that the punshment he took in the Margarito fight was too much to continue at that weight (even though he won).

    Floyd has been seeing serious pressure to fight GGG for the middleweight title. Boxing fans have been brutal to him for not doing so. Floyd started out at 130 and cleared out every division up til 154. Sure there are guys better than Berto, but I can see why he wouldn't want to take on GGG at middleweight.

    Meanwhile you got Joe Rogan and Dana defending Ronda for not doing a catchweight. Fair, she doesn't have to but when you clear out a division and only one division and the talent pool isnt there to have competitive fights, I dont think its too much to ask someone to move up 5 lbs. Fact is, boxing fans and boxing press are far more critical of fighters than UFC fans or press, notice I said UFC fans because I do think that MMA fans are different than fans of only the UFC.
     
  13. Based God

    Based God Task Force Platinum Member

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    In boxing if you go up a weight class you only go up 4lbs. lol in MMA you will go up 10-20lbs. per weight class. You see guys like Floyd Mayweather who are 5 division world champions and only moved a total of 24lbs between his first world title and last world title lol 5 weight classes only spread by 24lbs.
     
  14. Taric

    Taric Gold Belt

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    There are only 20 fighters in Ronda's "division". As far as I'm concerned, there are only enough women fighters in the UFC to make 1 open weight division.
     
  15. Ravendarat

    Ravendarat Blue Belt

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    What really boggles my mind is that people never talk about the fact that Ronda is in the heaviest division in the company for women. Thats where this convo should end. In every other instance people are talking about moving up to another weight, but that weight puts you into another division. Ronda moving to 145 makes no sense because there is no 145. It would be like Cain when he had the belt agreeing to a catchweight fight with Bob Sapp at 300 lbs, why would he bother? Just to make Bob a pay day? Forget that! It would be defensible to want Ronda to move up to 145 or even catchweight to fight Cyborg if the UFC added a 145 lb weight class but until they do the people calling for Ronda to go to 145 need to cool their jets and use their head a little.
     
  16. Forever Young

    Forever Young Balls Deep Belt

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    St. Pierre would have beaten Anderson though.
     
  17. UWPguy

    UWPguy Blue Belt

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    Nobody has said it yet but one thing to consider is that boxers often start competing very young - like 16 years old so as they get into their career they physically develop through proper weight training and nutrition.

    With MMA there are very few teenagers competing in it as they often compete in a different sport whether it be wrestling, BJJ, judo or Taekwondo and then in their 20's transition to MMA.

    Look at wrestlers for instance, I guarantee every NCAA wrestler wrestled at a lighter weight his freshman year of high school than he did in college but by the time they are seniors in college they have filled out to their adult size.
     
  18. WrestlinganJudo

    WrestlinganJudo Banned Banned

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    Actually in sports with a weight in if one person does it others respond.
     
  19. Troublesome10

    Troublesome10 non serviam belt

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    The only thing that doesn't make sense to me, is why Cyborg is treated like some upstart, who came AFTER Ronda, and is now challenging her. The reality is that Cyborg was murdering opponents and putting WMMA on the map before Ronda was. SHE was the established most dominant woman first. That's the reason why I think a 140lbs catchweight is completely reasonable. Cyborg will never make 135LBS. I agree that Ronda isn't obligated in any way to take that fight, but if she DOES want it, the 135lbs weight limit is just a bullshit obstacle. The title doesn't matter. People don't tune in because she's champ, they tune in because of her persona and her fighting style and skills.

    Just make the fight happen at 140LBS or don't even talk about it anymore.
     
  20. ThePewp

    ThePewp Green Belt

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    Ronda knows Borg can fight dirty at 145.

    Borg Justino can probably make 135 but only clean and no dirt.

    Smart business, really. Right?

    Justino is dangerous and I think that Ronda wants to force the check.
     

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