Boxing old vs new?

Discussion in 'Standup Technique' started by eternaldarkness, Jan 2, 2015.

  1. eternaldarkness

    eternaldarkness Brown Belt

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    i have watched boxing for years and have seen fights all the way from 1905 to now, boxing obviously evolved tremendously in the 1930's and 1940's to become what we know it as today. while i have no doubts that modern boxers are getting better a boxing at range i sometimes wonder how a modern boxer would fare against some of the old school fighters like jack johnson or les darcy. the style was that different that i think a lot of modern fighters would have trouble with the clinch based attack that a lot of old boxers had. modern fighters get separated quickly and aren't allowed to hold and hit, which was a specialty of some fighters like jack johnson, i don't think they would have the skills in the clinch to deal with this style if fighting under the old rules. how would a modern fighter deal with someone throwing clinch uppercuts like a football player.
     
  2. eternaldarkness

    eternaldarkness Brown Belt

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    does nobody have an opinion about the old school style of fighting and it's effectiveness. old boxing looks far closer to street fighting than it's modern counterpart. i have even seen footage of les darcy training what looked to be greco roman or judo for a boxing fight.
     
  3. facePuncher7

    facePuncher7 Founder of the militant wing of the Salvation Army

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    The sweet science has progressed in leaps and bounds since the time when the style you mention was the norm.

    Can't say who would win between specific athletes, but as a purely textbook study, boxing technique and strategy is much more refined these days. Though the old timers had a rougher approach I doubt they'd get into situations where that would be a positive factor as often as they'd like against modern fighters.
     
  4. PivotPunch

    PivotPunch Red Belt

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    very early on of course they were less polished technically, a long time the gloves were smaller and they were very early on still more influenced by bareknuckle boxing.
    They allowed a lot of clinching and dirty boxing it wasn't bareknuckel boxing but there was still a lot of wrestling going on.

    Refs have been getting more and more eager to break clinches or inside fighting.
    because of the smaller gloves there was more parrying and headmovement as opposed to blocking going on.
    But in the Jack Johnson era it was really almost Greco Roman wrestling no ref today would let the stuff go on that they did back then.
    They also didn't keep their non punching ahnd up often that's a big evolution i noticed. I'm also not sure how much the quality of film plays a role when watching guys from back then fight because their punches look crude you can especially see it in clips of bagwork. it's probably a bit of both (technique and quality of film).

    In the 30s the technique seems to really have come along. Joe Louis punched as short and accurate as any boxer today and if not HW because of the size difference should at least be able to domninate the CW division (even though in a fantasy time travel scenario he certainly should have the frame to put on size if he trained nowadays).
    Nowadays there are few fighters who can really fight on the inside especially at HW.

    Tyson Fury is 6'9 and most likely by far the best inside fighter at HW today.
    Wlad is at least doing an Ali impression and avoids inside fighting but most HWs are simply clueless on the inside.


    I don't know what you consider oldschool. Up to the 1930s?
     
  5. eternaldarkness

    eternaldarkness Brown Belt

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    it seemed a lot more evolved by the 1930's. i genuinely believe that jack johnson would do well against a modern boxer under old refereeing. i will never forget ray leonard vs tommy hearns, hearns dominated the fight then got caught, if he had of had more skill at clinching he might not have been finished. no good old school fighter would have made the same mistake (i believe this is why fighters had lower ko ratio's back in the day). if you haven't seen jack johnson fight it was a pretty amazing style for those used to modern boxing. he nearly never punched on the outside, he would parry their punches clinch and through the meanest brawlers uppercut you have ever seen. modern refs wouldn't allow it, but i believe he would be very effective against modern fighters that aren't used to that style of attack.
     
  6. eternaldarkness

    eternaldarkness Brown Belt

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    i don't doubt that modern boxers are better boxers by our standards but would they win if you dropped the gloves and rules and just made it a stand up bare knuckle fight. you might be surprised how bad a technical boxing style can be in a bare knuckle fight. you can't afford to throw a lot of punches you damage your hands too much. there is a good fight on the net of two good boxers fighting bare knuckle. the guy that had the more sport boxing style and technically better boxing hurt his hand jabbing old mate in the head and then got flattened.
     
  7. PivotPunch

    PivotPunch Red Belt

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    Yeah most likely but then again he would also ahve to be in a fnatasy scenario with a time machine so that he could train like modern fighters with weights, PEDs and whatever or he wouldn't be able to do it to huge HWs like Wlad.
    But yeah in the clinch those guys were undoubtably better than modern fighters the clinch was a huge part of boxing back then. The difference in clinching of those guys compared to modern guys is like the difference in clinching skill between Dutch kickboxers and MT fighters from THailand in one ruleset it's a huge part of the game and in the other it is hugely discouraged.

    I think holding and hitting should be legal I don't know why it isn't or I at least wish refs were like the refs back in the 1930s where there was already less clinching but still more allowed than nowadays.
    Even though Joe Louis wasn't primarily an infighter he had like 10 times the skill on the inside the average HWs today have even when he was fighting guys the size of modern SHWs like Abe Simon and Buddy Baer he was just beating them up head to head and shoulder to shoulder even someone like Buddy Baer who tried all the holding and hitting, leaning and dirty boxing there is Louis prevailed.
    Compared to even big HWs who fight Wlad and let themselves get manhandled in the clinch modern boxing is a bit embarrassing. That's also a reason why I think that Fury will beat Wlad he hasn't only got the size but he can fight on the inside and he will fight out of clinches and not play along with Wlad's thing
     
  8. eternaldarkness

    eternaldarkness Brown Belt

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    cheers for the response, the evolution of boxing has always fascinated me. you can understand modern refs separating them for the crowd's entertainment, it can be horribly boring if they are inactive in the clinch and they keep holding.
     
  9. shpboris

    shpboris Blue Belt

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    Are there any videos of that with ok quality ?

    P.S.
    I don't know about jack johnson generation, but IMO more modern doesn't always seem better to me. Boxers from 80\90-th were better IMO than today's boxing generation. Both athletically and technically.
     
  10. shpboris

    shpboris Blue Belt

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    Also older generation - fighters like Robinson, Joe Luis and some of their opponents don't look inferior technically compared to modern boxers. IMO it is usually the opposite.
     
  11. PivotPunch

    PivotPunch Red Belt

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    Yeah but they keep holding and do nothign BECAUSE of the modern ruleset/refereeing.
    They expect to get separated immediately and consider the clinch to be a safe spot that's why clinchign nowadays is passive.
    But in the old eras the clinch wasn't a safe spot vs someone who knew how to fight out of it.
    But because of the decline in infighting skill and because of many referees who won't allow anything and are quick to separate it si the way it is. Even if a fighter knwos how to fight ont he inside or out of a clinch he sometimes can't utilize it because a.) after onyla few seconds he will get separated and b.) the ref might warn him for anything despite it being legal to work in the clinch simply holding and hitting isn't legal but many refs don't knwo shit about boxing and will break a clinch even if both gyus have one hand free to punch.
    That's why Steve Smoger is my favourite ref at the moment some say he let's too many things go on but that's the way boxing is supposed to be even if he soemtimes allows things that are technically illegal I don't really give a shit I don#t knoww hy some of the rules are there to begin with.

    A great example of a.) inability of fight up close nowadays b.) hometown refereeing and refs who have simpyl no clue about boxing is this complete disgrace of a robbery if you manage to rob someone who won by stoppage then you know it's bad.

    This robbery is so disgraceful it's hard even rewatching it

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  12. eternaldarkness

    eternaldarkness Brown Belt

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    i was referring to an even older era in boxing, when they were definitely not as refined, jack johnson is the best example of a unique old school style, but les darcy and sam langford are also worth a watch.
     
  13. eternaldarkness

    eternaldarkness Brown Belt

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    good point about refs not allowing them to work, and it contributing to fighters getting lazy in the clinch. lets just say it is easier too observe the action if they are fighting at range, this is why a lot of refs don't like the clinch work in thai boxing, even though they are doing damage.
     
  14. PivotPunch

    PivotPunch Red Belt

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    I think back then there were some rgeat natural athletes in boxing but that's genetics and there jsut happened to be great natural athletes at HW and nowadays only very few (haye, Klitschkos,...).
    But athletically no not really I am a big believer in modern trainign simply because it's science and I believe science and especially the no weight training thing (especially for HWs) was crap even though in the 90s it started to become popular.
    But for example further back in the 70s the best HW division ever. The guys liek Frazier, Ali and Foreman and many more were great natural athletes genetically but they did in my opinion too much roadwork and of course didn't do any weights or stuff like sprints (some did also faster parts in their roadwork tbf) so they trained worse and especially strength wise were probably weaker but they were still strong and had power ebcause they were greta natural athletes.

    But like the clip of frazier running and lifting against other smaller athletes from that time shows it. I think he was also lacking technique with the running and lifts and because Ia ssume the other athletes from other sports did it in their training but still it showed how..... oldschool boxers trained back then even compared to athletes from other sports at the same time.

    Foreman also said eh used to drain himself down to his fight weight in his first career because he fought he would be faster which is obviously BS and he said it was a mistake and that was real oldschool mentallity many guys probably had back then.

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  15. PivotPunch

    PivotPunch Red Belt

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    I think the clinch both in boxing and Thaboxing is a bit like grappling in MMA the casual fan (nowadays in MMA it isn't as bad anymore and most have a basic knowledge of it) has no idea what's going on because he has no technical knowledge.

    The casual fan doesn't know in which way to slip a punch he only knows what a jab is and knows an uppercut when he sees one but he doesn't even know the proper mechanics of them and he has a very small perception of tactics or strategy like when he knwos that one guys is better on the outside and the other guy needs to come forward he already feels like an expert.

    But at midrange he sees guys exchanging and when one guy hurts the other he can still say "wow look at his pwoer" and has an explanation for the ko even though he most likely didn't see exactly which punch did the damage or how it was setup and why it landed for him the guys were punching and he will find an explanation for himself.

    On the outside it's even easier you see the punches better and mostly there are only thrown single punches and the casual fans most liekly sees which punch did the damage and feels satisified in being able to call the ko punch and simply says to himself one guy was better.

    But on the inside it's hard to see each punch, guys throw long combiantions but often with setup punches and a casual fan doesn't understand that you can throw punches at 20% to setup other punches, he has no udnerstanding of the mechanics of defence so he doesn't see who's in control and he has no idea how much power you can generate with short punches to him the punches on the inside all look weaker than wider and longer punches thrown from further away.

    Also inside fighting is a lot about control and mental games but without a deeper understanding of the mechanics and ins and outs of boxing you don't know that or at least don't understand what's going on.
     
  16. shpboris

    shpboris Blue Belt

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    That is exactly my point - in boxing genetics are HUGE in terms of athletic ability.Much more so than in running, swimming, weightlifting etc. Because a lot of things which are core for success in boxing almost can't be improved - like reflexes, toughness, speed, power, height, reach, ability to take a punch. They are natural mostly. So you can't say that due to advance in sports science\training athletes automatically become better. It is more like a lottery (luck) to have those guys in boxing.

    About technique to me it even looks like a decline. Old guys like Morales, Hopkins, Marquez, Tarver, Judah can have a competitive fights with guys who are top of the current generation. Very often despite giving up athletic ability.
     
  17. PivotPunch

    PivotPunch Red Belt

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    Below HW yes the difference isn't as big but at HW boxers are also simply bigger because of the additional muscle mass.....and also fat tbf.
    So at HW the power might be a little bit bigger because of the extra weight.
    Also speed/explosiveness is trainable a little bit not much not as much as strength and cardio but still a little bit.
    And a huge thing is that the amount of cardio (roadwork) they did back then probably made them less explosive. Yes boxing is both strength and cardio but their focus was too much on roadwork and the more you focus and cardio the more your strength and especially your explosiveness suffers.
    And the Foreman story is also a bad thing because drainign yourself just for the sake of reaching a certain weight you set yourself isn't going to help your cardio, strength and explosiveness really.

    But yeah i also agree with you that after all there still the natural athleticism and I am a believer in skill first but still guys like ALi weren't the athletes they could have been which kinda makes it even more impressive how athletic he was.

    Also I think one thing you can give those guys is dedication yes there were boxers who got out of shape in between camps back then but not as many as today nowadays it's basically the norm to train for 2 months - fight - get fat - repeat.
    Of course you can't keep up with your in camp training 365 but youc an at least stay in ok shape and work out like 2-3 times a week to work on your skill.
    That way of training is probably also a big reason for the decline in skill
     
  18. wilddeuces

    wilddeuces Brown Belt

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    They were much better at infighting many many moons ago. That can't be denied. Even one of the last truly great infighters, Roberto Duran, was only that good because Ray Arcel an old-school guy was training him.

    As far as the science behind dieting, and training, no one can dispute the advantages of today.

    I think the top talent of today would be very competitive back then, but also I believe that there were a lot of guys that didn't have a belt (because back then there was only 1 belt per each of the eight - not seventeen - weight classes) but were very legitimate contenders. Guys that gave Ray Robinson trouble, but you never hear about today. Basically the depth of talent was better back then and since guys fought so often, they were craftier in the ring. Dirtier perhaps, but if we accept that today's rules are used, I don't see the lack of dubious tactics affecting their overall game. You see way more feinting and head movement from the old timers compared to today's top 10 per weight class.
     
  19. WillW

    WillW Blue Belt

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    Watch MMA if you are looking for good holding and hitting. Couture,Barnett, DC, Jones, Brown.

    yes when you add the element of grips(holding) then it really changes the game
     

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