Boxing is too different from Muay Thai

[thetruth2709]

There is a thread about which is better for standing technique Boxing or Muay Thai and most posters say "train both" but the thing is just the stand for boxing is different from Muay Thai.

The way of throwing punches is different too, my MT instructor told me MT punches should be like a whip, fast and come back fast to your guard, and the punches in boxing you throw your whole body more with the punch for power, mainly because you dont have to worry about kicks or to get clinched.

Head movement almost doesnt exist in MT, head movemente is essential in boxing, and many other things. So it is not so "simple" to train in both as people say. I think you have to pick one to be your main base and the other one as secondary. And like is mentioned in that original thread it looks like more MMA fighters chose boxing to be the main one for standing since they most of the time hire "boxing" coaches

 

[Brendon Katz]

boxing needs to be tailored to suit mma, things like ducking from the hips and standing with your feet in a line which are okay in boxing are not okay in mma. similarly , mauy thai needs to be tailored to suit mma.

however, slipping is vital for any striking sport, whether it is mma, boxing or mauy thai because it does not expose you to any unnecessary dangers (ie. knees/takedowns). also, a good thai clinch and the ability to throw effective knees is very important for mma. kicks are used less in mma because throwing kicks exposes the fighter to takedowns. i think this is why many fighters train 'boxing' over mauy thai.

kind of related - more often than not a good puncher will be able to overcome a good kicker simply because of physics. its easier to throw and land more punches, more effectively, than to land an equal number of kicks.

 

[CowboyPete]

kind of related - more often than not a good puncher will be able to overcome a good kicker simply because of physics. its easier to throw and land more punches, more effectively, than to land an equal number of kicks.

This is why I think boxing is more vital for MMA. Of course, you've got to learn to defend kicks and knees but when it comes down to it, I think punches are the best strikes there are.

 

[deadlyshaolin]

This is why I think boxing is more vital for MMA. Of course, you've got to learn to defend kicks and knees but when it comes down to it, I think punches are the best strikes there are.

Somewhere out there, Kyryllo is crying.

 

[krellik]

..You see the pendulum swing from punches (obviously) when going from boxing sparring, to become more kicking focused when doing sparring under thai/kickboxing rules and then back towards punches again when takedowns is added in to the sparring....

But since both arts are nescesary to train the advice -do both- is still excellent because in this stage of development it is just a matter of picking the one you think are more fun and are most lickely to stick with for several hard practises a week. Its not like you have a rush to go pro eh?

 

[Kyryllo]

I hate it when people refer to a punching part of mma or kb as boxing. Boxing is a complex sport it self with different problems and different solutions, different training methods and different requirements. You don't go ahead and say about a NFL kicker "wow his soccer is great!" Punching is the obvious part of boxing, but boxing is not punching. The same aplies to any other sport with optical paralels to different sports. It's about you, your goals and your abbilities to pick up things you need and combine them to a functioning system. Often people think it's like in the Matrix, you plug a wire in your head download a file and then "I know kung-fu!".

 

[Brendon Katz]

I hate it when people refer to a punching part of mma or kb as boxing. Boxing is a complex sport it self with different problems and different solutions, different training methods and different requirements. You don't go ahead and say about a NFL kicker "wow his soccer is great!" Punching is the obvious part of boxing, but boxing is not punching. The same aplies to any other sport with optical paralels to different sports. It's about you, your goals and your abbilities to pick up things you need and combine them to a functioning system. Often people think it's like in the Matrix, you plug a wire in your head download a file and then "I know kung-fu!".

well when people say boxing they dont mean 12 round fights with 10 ounce gloves. they mean boxing skills- punching, slipping, bobbing and weaving, footwork etc. those skills are present in kb and mma, but are generally emphasised in boxing. kb skills refers to things like kicking, defending kicks, knee strikes etc. things that are not (usually) present in boxing and are present in mma. mma skills are , for instance - gnp, going from punching to takedowns or td defense etc.

you dont say an nfl kicker's soccer is great because soccer and kicking are very different. but its really just an argument about semantics and its easier to say his boxing skills are good than to say his standup skills are good, but he lacks kicking ability.

 

[Biggiebrother**]

I do agree that there are many technical differences even with just the punches between Boxing and MT

I think why many posters advise others to train in both MT and Boxing is that usually MT doesn't emphasize punching that much.

You compare two similarly gifted people, one who has trained MT for 2 years and one who has trained boxing for 2 years and you see the difference in their hand techniques. It's more than it should be.

My cousin trains in MT and i've seen many MT fightnights and the emphasis does seem to be more on kicks, knees an elbows. Of course if someone has trained long enough in MT they will eventually develop decent hands too

 

[IkkussSpikkuss]

Its MIXED martial arts. Boxing has to be tweaked some to work. MT has to be tweaked some to work. BJJ has to be tweaked some to work. Judo, Wrestling, Sambo, the list goes on. Learn boxing and MT. Then adapt and make a fighting style that works from a mix of all. For instance, I don't throw the full body driven punches like boxers do, usually I throw more MT type punches, which are still hard as hell and can KTFO of a guy too. I think upperbody/head movement is very very very important in MMA and use it a lot. There are a lot of chokes and positions I learned in BJJ that are in one ear and out the other because they wont work in an MMA fight. So I'm saying, learn everything and then mesh them together. Basically both MT and boxing are great in my opinion.

 

[krellik]

And as -always- I recomend to find a gym where you can learn to mesh everything together for mma.

This "take some of that, some of that", bastard hybrids will be a thing of the past soon enough. But quality sparring with gifted athletes in the different disciplines (under there rules) well thats a whole different story, that will always be usefull.

 

[Reveen]

You can, and probably should, combine them both. One of the reasons for JWP's success is that he has trained extensively in western boxing.

 

[Evil Eye Gouger]

I hate it when people refer to a punching part of mma or kb as boxing. Boxing is a complex sport it self with different problems and different solutions, different training methods and different requirements. You don't go ahead and say about a NFL kicker "wow his soccer is great!" Punching is the obvious part of boxing, but boxing is not punching. The same aplies to any other sport with optical paralels to different sports. It's about you, your goals and your abbilities to pick up things you need and combine them to a functioning system. Often people think it's like in the Matrix, you plug a wire in your head download a file and then "I know kung-fu!".

Hahaha, that's an awesome post, man, and completely true.

"Boxing" sometimes refers to general striking with your fists, not necessarily the formalised western sport of boxing, though. But it's important to know the difference. Different arts evolved differently because of their focus and sparring rules.

But, for what it's worth, I think a large reason why there aren't more kickers in MMA is that there aren't many GOOD kickers in MMA. While MMA has opened our eyes to the importance of cross-training and being well rounded, it has also created a number of fanboys who seriously underestimate the amount of work needed to become world-class in a certain aspect of fighting. This was most painfully obvious during Silva-Leben and Silva-Franklin matches. And Silva is not a top Muay Thai striker either.

Quite frankly, there are very few fighters in MMA who can kick well, and who have a good game geared towards kicking. CroCop is the only really good example, with guys like Crow and GSP showing promise.

That's why I find these "a good puncher against a good kicker" points to be seriously hypothetical.

 

[Evil Eye Gouger]

And as -always- I recomend to find a gym where you can learn to mesh everything together for mma.

This "take some of that, some of that", bastard hybrids will be a thing of the past soon enough. But quality sparring with gifted athletes in the different disciplines (under there rules) well thats a whole different story, that will always be usefull.

I'm not completely sure how I feel about this.

I know that I believe you should study the whole system if you want to get good. Find a good art, and stick with it, and much better is if you pick two or three good complementary arts and stick with all of them. I do recommend having a good base in one of them first.

The reason why I feel this is that you can't take single parts out of a martial art and then combine them with random parts of other martial arts, just like your said. People who take a kick or two from TKD and then take a takedown or two from Judo don't understand that TKD kicks are worthless without TKD footwork, and that Judo throws are worthless without judo grips, and that boxing punches don't work well without the boxing stance, etc, etc, etc.

That's why these ugly hybrids happen. A bunch of completely unrelated techniques, which can't be put together in a reasonable fashion. Then, due to lack of understanding, these people claim that techniques are worthless, etc.

On the other hand, many MMA schools teach exactly this: A big soup of random high-percentage techniques, without much to hold them together. It works well up to a certain level, but I do feel that you are ultimately limited by this approach.

If you look at most of the current champions and contenders, they have a strong base in a martial art, and have expanded on it with a second (and sometimes third) art, and then they just patch up the weak points once they build a solid game around it. Mirko, Silva (both of them), GSP... Most of these guys didn't learn striking in an MMA gym, and you can easily see it. Franklin and Hughes learned striking in an MMA gym. It's good at lower levels, but you hit a ceiling, and hit it hard.

I do think that many people are simply ignoring the long-term benefits of getting GOOD at something, and want too many shortcuts. Then they find out later that they have never built a good foundation. So you have guys who can kick a bag and punch it really hard and have a good combo or two, which serves them well in lower amateur levels, and then they can't make the step up because they have no footwork to build on, or they try to graft TKD kicks on top of boxing footwork, or graft judo on top of MT clinch, or a bunch of other abominations.

So, my opinion on the topic is that you should take time and learn your arts in depth, and take time to understand them well. This is the reason why Yoshida always gets the takedown, and why CroCop always lands that kick, and why a number of BJJ guys who learned kicking in their spare time always get them blocked.

Then again, I do martial arts for the love of it, and not for amateur/professional reasons, so I don't mind investing many years in basic training. A fighter trying to make a name for himself and get a contract may feel differently, and that's legitimate.

 

[xinster]

then what do you tihnk about grappling? Mixing sambo/judo or bjj/sambo and forms of wrestling? My gym does that, but i feel it they are much more complimentary than standup arts because of the recurring themes of control, keeping space tight,dominant positions before submissions

 

[Evil Eye Gouger]

then what do you tihnk about grappling? Mixing sambo/judo or bjj/sambo and forms of wrestling?

I think it's great, but I also feel that BJJ, Sambo and Judo are so similar in so many ways, that one can almost see them as branches of the same art. So even though there's plenty of overlap, they don't contradict each other.

If you try to combine greco-roman with Judo, for example, it gets more difficult, at least I would expect it. The distance is difference, the setups are different, you cover the same ideas, but in different ways. I am not knowledgable in greco-roman, and my Judo knowledge is limited, but I would imagine it would be far easier to learn one well, and then adapt it to deal with the other, as opposed to trying to learn both at the same time. Too many differences to keep in mind.

Generally, arts tend to go together if there isn't a lot of overlap. That's why Muay Thai and BJJ are such a successful combination, as is wrestling and boxing. Knowing one doesn't interfere with the other. Learning TKD and Muay Thai at the same time is already very different, and more difficult. I'd rather learn one of them really well, and then expand it with cross training later. Learn TKD, and learn to check low kicks and get out of the clinch, or learn Muay Thai, then expand it with axe kicks and back kicks and some footwork once you get good at Muay Thai.

That's my opinion, but I realise that there are people who feel differently. They will tell you that learning both at the same time, or learning a hybrid of both will give you better results. If it works for you, then more power to you, I say.

 

[FIGHT FAN]

that is a great post.... you see it alot where a guy is just mixed bag of different things and ideas and has no real strengths to fall back on. while a guys like josh koscheck for example( even though he is not well rounded at all) can always fall back on his superior wrestling and defeat guys who are more well rounded yet have no real strengths at the same time.

 

[thetruth2709]

Generally, arts tend to go together if there isn't a lot of overlap. That's why Muay Thai and BJJ are such a successful combination, as is wrestling and boxing. Knowing one doesn't interfere with the other. Learning TKD and Muay Thai at the same time is already very different, and more difficult. I'd rather learn one of them really well, and then expand it with cross training later. Learn TKD, and learn to check low kicks and get out of the clinch, or learn Muay Thai, then expand it with axe kicks and back kicks and some footwork once you get good at Muay Thai.
.

I agree with what he is saying, and if we take that to the original question of Boxing or Muay Thai, I think there are critical differences in standing, throwing punches, movement and so on to try to have a base in both at the same time. I think you should pick ONE, wheter its Boxing or Muay Thai and then after you have a solid base on one then you try to adapt the other one to your game, but trying to learn both at the same time without a solid foundation in one will only confuse you and result in not having a base to fall back on when you are in troubles.

 

[krellik]

I'm not completely sure how I feel about this.

I know that I believe you should study the whole system if you want to get good. Find a good art, and stick with it, and much better is if you pick two or three good complementary arts and stick with all of them. I do recommend having a good base in one of them first.

The reason why I feel this is that you can't take single parts out of a martial art and then combine them with random parts of other martial arts, just like your said. People who take a kick or two from TKD and then take a takedown or two from Judo don't understand that TKD kicks are worthless without TKD footwork, and that Judo throws are worthless without judo grips, and that boxing punches don't work well without the boxing stance, etc, etc, etc.

That's why these ugly hybrids happen. A bunch of completely unrelated techniques, which can't be put together in a reasonable fashion. Then, due to lack of understanding, these people claim that techniques are worthless, etc.

On the other hand, many MMA schools teach exactly this: A big soup of random high-percentage techniques, without much to hold them together. It works well up to a certain level, but I do feel that you are ultimately limited by this approach.

If you look at most of the current champions and contenders, they have a strong base in a martial art, and have expanded on it with a second (and sometimes third) art, and then they just patch up the weak points once they build a solid game around it. Mirko, Silva (both of them), GSP... Most of these guys didn't learn striking in an MMA gym, and you can easily see it. Franklin and Hughes learned striking in an MMA gym. It's good at lower levels, but you hit a ceiling, and hit it hard.

I do think that many people are simply ignoring the long-term benefits of getting GOOD at something, and want too many shortcuts. Then they find out later that they have never built a good foundation. So you have guys who can kick a bag and punch it really hard and have a good combo or two, which serves them well in lower amateur levels, and then they can't make the step up because they have no footwork to build on, or they try to graft TKD kicks on top of boxing footwork, or graft judo on top of MT clinch, or a bunch of other abominations.

So, my opinion on the topic is that you should take time and learn your arts in depth, and take time to understand them well. This is the reason why Yoshida always gets the takedown, and why CroCop always lands that kick, and why a number of BJJ guys who learned kicking in their spare time always get them blocked.

Then again, I do martial arts for the love of it, and not for amateur/professional reasons, so I don't mind investing many years in basic training. A fighter trying to make a name for himself and get a contract may feel differently, and that's legitimate.

Well to put it whery simply, I find mma to be a sport whery much of it own.
No sport on earth is without its own specialised training methods and mma shouldnt be trained or treated in any other way.
"But how about triathlon, they train in different disciplines".. ...Yeah that would be relevant if they swam, biked and run simultaniously...

No but seriously the only reason mma is trained the way it is right now is because there are whery few gyms out there that have quality thought through mma hybrid systems. At this point you will get such a much higher level at training going to the different specialists that the negative points of the fact that the arts dont really "match" eachother gets downprioritised.

To put it bluntly there if you want to train for the sole purpose of mma you need to cut away all "bullshit", everything thats not relevant for the specific arena should be filtered away in favour for being able to chain everything togheter.
Of course if you have other priorities than mma or you never will fight mma then its a different story.

 

[xinster]

I just got back frtom watching my judo instructor MT spar with one of our amateur MMAers. He has trained MT before, but has many more years JKD and kung fu. First round he was doing fine with crisp MT moves, but when he started gassing he went back to kung fu and JKD stuff. It affected him negatively, let's leave it at that.

 

[Soulbane]

Muay Thai and boxing are similar in the cardio and stamina department, considering the obvious geographic beginnings of each, difference in technique should be expected.

Remember, the difference between traditional TKD and sport TKD is striking for "points" and striking for effectiveness.

Traditional MT is good for MT, but needs to be tailored for the MMA world. CroCop did extensive training to make the transition from kickboxing to MMA, and his kickboxing isn't really deeply rooted in Muay Thai.

No matter what you learn, it needs to be adapted. That's why it boils down to preference, and how well you can cope with and make the transition.