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Economy Bolivia's Socialist Economy Booming

Discussion in 'The War Room' started by 58miles, Feb 23, 2019.

  1. 58miles

    58miles Black Belt

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    Bolivia might be the world’s most successful country that calls itself “socialist” (the Nordic countries generally eschew the label). When Evo Morales was elected president in 2006, he explicitly repudiated capitalism and aligned Bolivia with Hugo Chavez’s Venezuela and Fidel Castro’s Cuba. Since then, Morales has redistributed income through various government programs, raised minimum wages substantially, and nationalized industries such as telecommunications, oil and electricity.

    Much to the chagrin of socialism’s detractors, the strategy worked. Even as Venezuela fell into economic ruin, Bolivia entered an unprecedented period of sustained rapid growth


    By 2017, Bolivia was 42 percent richer than when Morales took office. But for the average Bolivian, the results were even better -- the country’s Gini coefficient, a measure of income inequality, fell by more than 19 percentsince Morales took office. Poverty has declined by 25 percent since he was elected.
    https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/a...ent=view&utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social
     
  2. Philo-Publius

    Philo-Publius Silver Belt Platinum Member

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    This is a sham. Bolivia is using elements of a free market (kind of like China). It is not the same as what Venezuela has done with its economy.

    https://fee.org/articles/why-bolivia-is-not-a-socialist-success-story/
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2019
  3. PrinceOfPain

    PrinceOfPain Silver Belt

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    Considering who the TS is, I'm going to pause long enough to assume he's overlooked something massive that undermines the entirety of the point he is making, and then I'm going to move on.
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2019 at 8:17 PM
  4. 58miles

    58miles Black Belt

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    This isn't my opinion, it's Bloomberg's. You are now more than welcome to move on if you want but I will be so heartbroken this thread will be deprived of the insights of a international business wiz like yourself.
    <DCrying>
     
  5. Rholk

    Rholk Blue Belt

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    Well lets see how long the fairytale lasts this time<{outtahere}>
     
  6. abiG

    abiG The Last Iconoclast Double Yellow Card

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    Wow, a true utopian paradise.

    Wait, oops, sorry, please disregard:
    Bolivia. Bolivia is one of the poorest countries in South America. According to the Center for Economic and Policy Research, which published an in depth report in December 2009, the latest poverty data available is from 2007. It shows that 60.1% of the population live in poverty and 37.7% in extreme poverty.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_South_America
     
  7. 58miles

    58miles Black Belt

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    You aren't the sharpest tool in the shed are you champ? The period of time referenced in this article runs from 2006 until about 2017.
     
  8. Trotsky

    Trotsky Double Yellow Card Double Yellow Card

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    You could have just said "fake news" since the phrase is already a stand in for ad hominem and admission of willful ignorance.

    If you had read the article (I know, quite a feat) or even read your own Wikipedia link (an even greater one) you'd realize the Bolivia didn't elect a socialist regime until 2006, after which the Bolivian economy has boomed.

    By 2017, Bolivia was 42 percent richer than when Morales took office. But for the average Bolivian, the results were even better -- the country’s Gini coefficient, a measure of income inequality, fell by more than 19 percent since Morales took office. Poverty has declined by 25 percent since he was elected.
    I guess it was capitalism that had turned Bolivia into one of the continent's poorest countries before Morales, as the data you referenced is from 2007-2008, only a year or two into his first term.
     
  9. Cuauhtemoc

    Cuauhtemoc Silver Belt

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    Congratulations to Bolivia but it's like the Eskimo population of NYC. Saying it doubled doesn't mean much when it went from 5 to 10.
    To be fair Evo Morales is a lot less crazy than Chavez and Maduro. He has leveraged his country gas wealth to some decent results.
    On the other hand, he is now a dictator. He was already elected 3 times, he failed to pass a referendum to run a fourth time but the supreme court there, all appointed by him, said it doesn't matter and that the referendum failed due to american interference and he can run as long as he wants to.
    The economy also isn't diversifying at all and if prices crash that's it, they're done.
     
  10. Arqueto

    Arqueto 'luminous beings are we....not this crude matter'

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    I will beat you into Bolivian.
     
    TheOldMan, Sleestaxk, TeTe and 17 others like this.
  11. Trotsky

    Trotsky Double Yellow Card Double Yellow Card

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    Where is the sham part?

    Socialism doesn't demand an abolition of the market or of market logic. Early Maoist China is the only country of which I am aware that legitimately tried anything like that (abolishing a country's internal market as well as its participation in the international marketplace).

    Also, "elements of a free market" is a non sequitur. Every economy, including Venezuela's, has market elements. And, in the case of Venezuela, it is arguable that the retention of market formations concurrent to the leveling of capitalist incentives under Chavez is largely to blame for Venezuela's collapse (to the extent that you can levy criticism without touching on rampant corruption).
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2019
  12. abiG

    abiG The Last Iconoclast Double Yellow Card

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    I read it, guys. The point is that it's still nothing to be going down on each other over.

    Although Bolivia has some of the lowest crime rates in South America, it still has its share of crime and scams. Here are some handy tips to avoid the inconvenience of becoming the next unsuspecting victim.

    Petty crime, like pickpocketing and theft is unfortunately increasing...

    Thefts at ATMs are also becoming increasingly common, with many of them resulting in assaults....

    More violent crimes in Bolivia include express kidnappings, which typically involve criminals targeting a foreigner, taking them hostage and driving from ATM to ATM forcing them to withdraw money....

    Tourists are advised to avoid the Coronilla Hill in Cochabamba, located near the main bus terminal. This area has become a haven for drug addicts and alcoholics and is dangerous for both foreigners and locals.


    A strong police presence has yet to deter the criminal activity, so you're best to steer clear. Additionally, the tourist site of Rurrenabaque has become a popular site for thieves to target lone travelers taking motorbike taxis, so be particularly diligent when visiting this area....

    There is an ongoing drug problem in Bolivia, particularly since it happens to be the third largest cocaine producer in the world....

    [NOTE: This will do wonders for any economy on earth!]

    Bolivia is a country where traveling after dark is particularly dangerous...

    ...bus drivers are often in cahoots with criminal taxi drivers, and purposely stop short of the destination, ejecting the confused passengers and leaving them with no choice but to hail taxis.
    Once inside the taxis, victims are robbed of their valuables....
     
  13. JDragon

    JDragon DOX News Anchor Platinum Member

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    Making a bus driver dictator certainly didn't help.
     
  14. Philo-Publius

    Philo-Publius Silver Belt Platinum Member

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    Using a sliding definition of what "socialism" means is a clever way of convincing people to adopt a system that will destroy their own economy. Taxing wealthy people at 90% absolutely abolishes a country's "internal market."
     
  15. Trotsky

    Trotsky Double Yellow Card Double Yellow Card

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    So, the fact that Bolivia's economy and standards of living have improved greatly under their socialist government is negated by the fact that Bolivia also "has some of the lowest Crime rates in South America" and...has cocaine...?

    Try harder.

    Agreed. Everyone knows that heads of government should be cabbies.

    Under your non-sliding definition, there has never been a socialist country in the history of the world..so....maybe my/an informed definition is better?

    That doesn't even make any sense unless the entirety of your economic knowledge comes from the introduction of a supply side Wikipedia page. There's no coherent way to "tax wealthy people at 90%" outside of a graduated tax rate....which the United States had....and which capped out at 91%....during the largest period of economic prosperity in US history....

    Also, if you're meaning to get into reductive definitions, redistributive taxation isn't the definitional bedrock of socialism. Redistribution of ownership is.
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2019
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  16. 58miles

    58miles Black Belt

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    Bolivia a small South American country made a bus driver dictator and the United States, the most the most powerful nation on earth made a reality tv host president. At this point I'm not sure we are in the best position to judge what kind of career's should disqualify a person from being the leader of a nation.
     
  17. JDragon

    JDragon DOX News Anchor Platinum Member

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    That's ok, I am German. Our leader has a doctorate in quantum chemistry.
     
  18. Rod1

    Rod1 Titanium Belt

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    Oh boy, im having a field day tomorrow with this.
     
  19. Rod1

    Rod1 Titanium Belt

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    Evo rode a commodity supercycle that its effectively over. Venezuela was also a complete "success" when oil was at $100 USD a barrel



    The cracks of "evonomy" are showing, its bloated government (in which a lot of his low unemployment and distribution rest) had a 9% deficit in 2017 and a 7% deficit in 2018 its the 5 consecutive year with such a large deficit and growth isnt making up for it, Bolivia is heading towards the classical Latin American external debt crisis that almost invariably follows a commodity boom.

    https://bolivianthoughts.com/2018/10/13/dangerous-growth-of-external-debt-evos-legacy/

    Now, Evo isnt Chavez, he isnt as ideological as him and certainly he is smarter than the bus driver, but Evonomy is over.

    Also because its "success" is riding on selling gas and other commodities abroad, Bolivia is what could be called State capitalism and its "socialist" element of the economy, completely unsustainable.


    Banana republics boom and bust all the time according to commodity prices, i also would refrain to call pre-Morales Bolivia as capitalist considering the nature of Latin American.

    Import substitution and fixed exchange rates were common in previous regimes, Latin America only tries "capitalism" after massive debt crisis and such models are not taken willingly, its more like they are taken because they are broke, which is where the whole "neoliberalism bad mkay" mentality comes from Latin America. Broke countries dont get to choose their economic models.

    If Chavismo had been defeated before the 2014 oil glut people all over the world would be talking about how Chavismo was fucking great and the new "neoliberal government" would be that of scarcity. Its no different from right winger criticizing democrat economic performance during Obama when the GFC hit the hardest.

    The reason Evo has lasted longer is because unlike Chavez he didnt destroyed (entirely) Bolivian internal economy, he also lowered the overall debt which allowed him to run 5 years with massive deficits, but that's already cracking because Bolivia cant take more deficits and the commodity prices remain depressed.
     
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  20. Rod1

    Rod1 Titanium Belt

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    You arent a dictator until you dissolve congress, he is at the "hybrid regime" stage as of now, but their congress and judiciary seem to still retain power.

    The sham is that the country growth and expansion of social programs came thanks to an extractive policy of state capitalism, selling commodities abroad to finance an unsustainable model inside, a model that broke down once the commodity slump of 2014 came. As of now Bolivian "socialism" is just running the credit card, the last 5 years have seen Bolivian deficit go up dramatically.
     
    AlexDB9 and Son of Jamin like this.

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