Bobbing and weaving

[kyred]

Sorry if this has been asked before, but I didn't find any specifically related results on the forums via search.

I have a question for all you experienced boxers out there.

Our BJJ academy offers a boxing class and I started taking them 4-5 times a week starting about a month ago. I used to just take them to get in shape and as a warm-up before the BJJ class, but upon, seeing and feeling myself loosen up during the punching/evading drills, I've decidedly fallen in love with it.

This question involves bobbing and weaving. For years I've been watching and been amazed with how Iron Mike utilized this tactic, but am a bit confused with how to apply it. Are we supposed to slip to the OUTSIDE of punches or does it even matter? I use a southpaw stance, so if my orthodox opponent throws a left jab, should I slip to MY right? Some training partners say it doesn't really matter, but some also say it does, with counterpoints to both sides of the argument.

If it does, how do you recommend developing this kind of instinctive feeling of which side to slip to? When we train evasive maneuvers, it almost feels like a videogame to me, where I watch my opponent intently and try to slip same-side and counter. Whereas, when watching Tyson, or say, Anderson Silva, they seem to just bob and weave randomly and make their opponent miss as a result. But also, at times, they slip to the INSIDE of the punch, which might open them up to a follow up from the other hand.

So to all you experienced boxers out there, do you time your bobbing and weaving to punches, or just do it following punches and at random times to avoid any and all punches? Slip inside, or outside of punches?

 

[supernova]

Slip outside but when you move, you move away from the power. For example, a right handed boxer throws a right hook at you. You slip outside to your left (his right) to give you the best chance of dodging it. But to circle when standing toe to toe, you circle to your right and away from his power. Its confusing at first but it will become instinct. My dad was Gold Gloves Boxer (and a champion at that) back in the day before he was Gold Gloves Drinker, and taught me a ton.

 

[nip102]

both if you slip to just one side you can be timed and countered.good headmovement should be random and slight no elaborate movements make them miss by inches.

 

[supernova]

both if you slip to just one side you can be timed and countered.good headmovement should be random and slight no elaborate movements make them miss by inches.

also true. Boxing is very complex!

 

[kyred]

Thanks Jadefalcon!

Yes, I agree boxing is *very* complex. It seems simple at first but once you are forced to see it beyond just punching, you soon realize that it's much much tougher than you think!

So when you guys bob and weave, do you do it at random times (check Shogun's occasional bobbing and weaving during the Machida fight) to just throw off your opponent, or only time it to punches to conserve energy?

When I shadow box, I try to incorporate the motions after random punches (i.e. right hook followed by slips) to simulate avoiding counters. I find bobbing and weaving when practicing with a partner also sometimes makes them think you're going to punch due to the weight shifts, and the put their hands up to defend.

I can't help but think of this past weekend's Lesnar-Carwin fight. Perhaps a properly trained boxer could've slipped through Carwin's punches (the ones that put Brock down). This is of course, taking kicks out of the equation. And I'm sure, if worse comes to worst, in a real life brawl where punches are thrown, an untrained opponent won't really expect you to slip in and out like that.

I'm trying to work the slips into the forward walking motion a la Tyson, to try to get in close while still avoiding punches. Very slowly for now, though.

 

[nip102]

do you use a slipbag great for headmovement.random times is good usually guys who are not very fast do this to avoid incoming shots. Cotto and Hopkins do it alot,if you can't get a slipbag get in the ring. tie a one rope from one corner to the other and do the same again on the two remaing corners. now shadow box and use the ropes to bob and weave under. this rope drill should make your bobbing and weaving first class in all aspects

 

[Gladstone]

both if you slip to just one side you can be timed and countered.good headmovement should be random and slight no elaborate movements make them miss by inches.

This. When bobbing and weaving you don't necessarily have to completely dodge every punch. A glancing blow is alot easier to absorb than a flush punch.

 

[thirteen]

First up congrats on falling in love with the 'Sweet Science'.
As said above you can slip to either side, practice a nice
fluid movement and mix it up - don't always go to one
side. And the movements are small, you slip just enough
to avoid damage.

Good luck with training.

 

[Falcyon]

Perhaps TS should start with parries.

I know people like to imitate Mike Tyson and Anderson Silva, but those are people you probably shouldn't imitate fully. They do what works for them. Playing Peek-a-boo in an MMA context will kill you.

Slipping and Bobbing+Weaving take time to develop. Ideally, you slip to counter. Slipping takes a lot of energy over time, and if you don't counter, the investment return in small. Meanwhile, I would say try understanding counters off the parry. After you have gotten your parries and subsequent counters, try slipping.

 

[chino0503]

remember that scene from forgetting sara marshall? with the surfing instructor.

"you're doing too much, do less"

at first you're gonna be moving your head alot, you're gonna be slipping punches. and once that happens and you get comfortable the thought is gonna pop in your head "I SHOULD BE PUNCHING BACK WHEN I MAKE EM MISS!!!"

you're pretty much gonna go thru stages step by step. once slipping punches become second nature that's when YOU DO LESS!!!

i hope you understand. keep the head moving and come with those clean counters nothing is more beautiful in combat sports than a perfectly timed slip and counter!!!

 

[chino0503]

Perhaps TS should start with parries.

I know people like to imitate Mike Tyson and Anderson Silva, but those are people you probably shouldn't imitate fully. They do what works for them. Playing Peek-a-boo in an MMA context will kill you.

Slipping and Bobbing+Weaving take time to develop. Ideally, you slip to counter. Slipping takes a lot of energy over time, and if you don't counter, the investment return in small. Meanwhile, I would say try understanding counters off the parry. After you have gotten your parries and subsequent counters, try slipping.

agreed. theres tons of ways to defend besides slipping. catching, simply stepping back/sideways or just bending those knees and changing levels.

head movement is really the hardest to learn but its the one that pays off the most.... why? cause your hands are free to punch back.

1st line of def- footwork
2nd line- catching and parrying
3rd line (or when things start to slow down for you)- slipping, head movement and those counters baby!!!!
4th line- COVER UP!!!!

 

[kyred]

This. When bobbing and weaving you don't necessarily have to completely dodge every punch. A glancing blow is alot easier to absorb than a flush punch.

Ahhh yes. I remember this being taught to me. The distance at which I slip has gradually decreased over time, but I'm still not as conscious of this as I should be. I'll be sure to keep this in mind next time.

It *is* a little scary though even when you slip a punch if it grazes you and it's a power punch. :icon_chee

Playing Peek-a-boo in an MMA context will kill you.

Haha so true. I'm trying to just appreciate boxing for what it is, however. So for me, all the moves are acceptable, regardless of whether or not they'd be effective in MMA. Granted though, there are movements that'll have you eating knees if you ever did them in the cage.

agreed. theres tons of ways to defend besides slipping. catching, simply stepping back/sideways or just bending those knees and changing levels.

This is also true. We practice body punches, lots of footwork- rotating in/out in stance, and of course, parrying. Actually, the footwork thing also interests me a lot. I figure it translates well even on the street where your average thug may run at you like an animal and you just rotate out of the way. Composure is key though, and that's something I still need to work on a lot.

All that said though, I'm developing a pet peeve against people who go full force/speed with their shots and not really allow you to develop your parrying/slipping skills from ground up. And instead of the instructed drill of jab-straight slowly to get their partner used to catching or moving from side to side, they work in these fakes or double jabs.

It's kind of a love-hate relationship though. It does keep me on my toes during training and provides an adrenaline rush. I did, however, come within a few inches of being punched squarely in the mouth during slipping exercises once. :redface:

I'm primarily a jiu-jitsu guy, but man, boxing is great. The weird thing is that depending on whom you train with, you think you're just in that class setting doing all these movements and punches and initially it feels like one big cardio class. But then you partner up and realize all these movements have become second nature and you're actually getting pretty effective doing them. Again, this depends on your trainer I guess, but I'm lucky enough to have a decidedly good one (yup, I've taken some occasional boxing classes in the past years).

 

[AtlanticMMA.com]

Typically you'd want to slip to the outside of the punch.

Slipping a right hand to the inside is possible, but only from distance. If you're any closer you're just gonna get nailed.

I think slipping the jab to either side is fine as long as you're aware of the most likely following shot.

Bobbing and weaving is only useful when you're in range. And if you're in range you should have jabbed your way there, and the bobbing and weaving should have a specific purpose, e.g. slip right, slip left, land hook, angle off...otherwise if you just bob and weave in range and stay there without a purpose you'll eventually get timed no matter how good at it you are.

But yes, a moving target is always going to be harder to hit than a static one.


The Boxing Bible for MMA eBook

 

[Falcyon]

agreed. theres tons of ways to defend besides slipping. catching, simply stepping back/sideways or just bending those knees and changing levels.

head movement is really the hardest to learn but its the one that pays off the most.... why? cause your hands are free to punch back.

1st line of def- footwork
2nd line- catching and parrying
3rd line (or when things start to slow down for you)- slipping, head movement and those counters baby!!!!
4th line- COVER UP!!!!

Agreed with this, not just because the poster agreed with me lol.

I would use those four tiers as a guideline, it's definitely accurate. Superior footwork saves your ass a lot. And it makes you a better fighter. It allows you to dictate pace, mount an offense and defense, and keep pressure. Good footwork will make the rest of your game more efficient. Just don't stay flatfooted and make sure you aren't front foot heavy or you won't be able to explode. Don't forget the feet. Always mindful of where you are in the ring, always thinking one step (literally and figuratively) ahead.

 

[Sinister]

Why not let the man himself explain it?



And don't give me that jive about him being hard to understand. Just turn it up listen, he lays it out.

 

[quikkick]

agreed. theres tons of ways to defend besides slipping. catching, simply stepping back/sideways or just bending those knees and changing levels.

head movement is really the hardest to learn but its the one that pays off the most.... why? cause your hands are free to punch back.

1st line of def- footwork
2nd line- catching and parrying
3rd line (or when things start to slow down for you)- slipping, head movement and those counters baby!!!!
4th line- COVER UP!!!!

This is the first post you made that I agree with.

 

[BlankaGoodwin]

Slip punches by leaning Outside of the punch. And Bob and Weave to "Get inside and open up like a son of a bitch" - Mike Tyson.
If they throw a left hook, you move right to get out of his way, use the angle to get inside and hit him from there. Use the jab to keep them at bay and mix it up. You cant just go in bobbing and weaving most of the time against a skilled fighter. You should quick punches of your own, While adding some headmoving and slipping; that works best. Also if your trying to become more of a kickfighter, if your open to kicking, use some leg kicks to get inside as well.

 

[ssullivan80]

remember that scene from forgetting sara marshall? with the surfing instructor.

"you're doing too much, do less"

at first you're gonna be moving your head alot, you're gonna be slipping punches. and once that happens and you get comfortable the thought is gonna pop in your head "I SHOULD BE PUNCHING BACK WHEN I MAKE EM MISS!!!"

you're pretty much gonna go thru stages step by step. once slipping punches become second nature that's when YOU DO LESS!!!

i hope you understand. keep the head moving and come with those clean counters nothing is more beautiful in combat sports than a perfectly timed slip and counter!!!

LMAO on that Sarah Marshal quote, that said, your posts in this thread are spot on! good advice.....

Why not let the man himself explain it?



And don't give me that jive about him being hard to understand. Just turn it up listen, he lays it out.

Great clip, thanks for that.......

In addition, I am sick of hearing how bob n weave is not effective or dangerous in MMA, i say bullshit...... it is very effective if done correctly, nice and tight with a solid base, head up, chin tucked, shoulders square...... it is actually a very underutilized tool in MMA and could be extremely effective.

I think there is a common mis understanding that guys who haven't spent time learning true "boxing", bob n weave, tuck n roll, swing underneath, step n slip (peak a boo) are not all the same technique.... they all are quite different and all have separate applications, yet they seem to be understood as 1 general technique..... ya should do a thread to clarify this, since it is a subject of much confusion on this forum.

Playing Peek-a-boo in an MMA context will kill you.

.

Nonsense, why do you say that? Hell..... at least it would get a guy moving his head, a technique that seems unapparent in many MMA fighters. It may not be applicable in all situations, but that can be said for a myriad of techniques...... the peak a boo would be very useful for a boxer wrestler type mma fighter, depending on the opponent....... not every MMA fighter throws Cro Cop high kicks or monster leg kicks......

 

[kyred]

Yeah I've seen that video. He really does an excellent job of explaining. Awesome how you can really tell how passionate he still is about his art. Props to the reporter- I'd still be scared shitless being the same ring as Iron Mike. My legs = noodles.

I think there is a common mis understanding that guys who haven't spent time learning true "boxing", bob n weave, tuck n roll, swing underneath, step n slip (peak a boo) are not all the same technique.... they all are quite different and all have separate applications, yet they seem to be understood as 1 general technique..... ya should do a thread to clarify this, since it is a subject of much confusion on this forum.

Yes I always thought as long as you were moving your head, you were bobbing and weaving. I guess they might fall under the general umbrella of head movement, but it'd be great if someone could break these techniques down. Do you know of any differences off the top of your head?

 

[chino0503]

exactly what it means. bob and weave. bob= move your head up and , weave= move side to side. put those 2 together. bob and weave

pretty much like a U motion.