"Blending" Judo and BJJ?

[wOg]

There's nothing I'd rather train than jiu jitsu. But I am a HUGE judo fan, and love the throws. I'm lucky enough to train at a bjj school that works throws every class for a good half hour ...

But I'm curious: from a scoring perspective, could you have a gi competition that equally valued the ippon and the submission? Is this what Rickson is after with the Budo Challenge? I keep imagining a gi tournament in which everything other than ippon or submission was worth 1 point ...

Maybe I've been watching too many Jacare HLs ... But it's a crime that we so often talk about judo and jiu jitsu as if they are really "separate" things ...

 

[Sixth]

It would make a fine blend, so long as you concentrate on your position after the takedown. Too often Judoka throw caution to the wind in order to get the throw, and you know as well as I do that regardless of whether you hit that drop Seio-Nage, if you give your back in the roll through, you're stepping in shit with your sandals on.
So long as you can make the transitions well, and make sure you adapt them both well you'll be fine.

 

[Greasemonk]

Yeah as long as you land in a dominant position it would be all good, around where I live we score takedowns 2 points. Alot of Judo throws also set up your submissions so you could finish a guy in a quick 10 seconds lol

 

[Bubble Boy]

But I'm curious: from a scoring perspective, could you have a gi competition that equally valued the ippon and the submission?

...it's a crime that we so often talk about judo and jiu jitsu as if they are really "separate" things ...

I'm with you.
We talk about grappling tournaments quite a bit at my judo club, tournaments that would highlight both judo throws and sub grappling techs.
My feeling are that we would need to give the most points for a dynamic throw, more than any other move. So a sick throw gets you like 6 points or something, a decent takedown gets you 4, and a piece of shit takedown gets you 2. Then it's standard bjj points from there on. Plus, subs end the fight. I also think it would be nice to score a long pin with some points, like a 30 second judo pin gets you 2 points, however you can't get an additional 2 points for a pin after that. You'd be done for pin points.

I don't know, it's difficult to come up with something.

We did come up with a tournament idea where you seperate everything out:

A throw only division (points for throws only, no ground fighting, no ippons that end the fight, but progressively more points for better throws).
A submission only division (no points for anything; submit and you win).
A standard judo points and rules division.
A standard bjj points and rules division.
A participant would have to sign up for a minimum of 2 divisions to compete at all.

 

[irondragon]

Awesome idea,

Your concept is something a lot of us want to see. It's sad that powerful judo throws are not considered in MAA - grappling rules.

VALUE
There is a class of judo throws called "sacrifice throws" which are absolutely devastating. Bone crushing in fact. You literally drive your opponent into the ground adding your force to his own downward momentum. In otherwords, you will not be standing after finishing the throw! You land on top of your victim in a superior position for a pin down or submission. If your opponent is still conscious when he lands, you've already got him setup for the submission or choke-out.

POWER
Good thing in sport judo and jiujitsu there are soft mats to land on because in a real street fight, the solid concrete will not give way. The guy will land on his head or spine. The impact is far worse than a mere punch to the face. Your head + speed + landing on concrete = a knockout.

STRATEGY
A good judo player should practice "controlling the distance and preventing the clinch". Train to keep the wrestler or grappler away from your legs and away from the tight clinch. Shoot-judo is the picture I'm trying to put in your head. Shoot in for your throw, but breakaway and keep a distance if things aren't in your favor. In otherwords, control the flow of the fight. Beat the clock.

If all fighters are equally matched, the guy who can execute five or six good looking high impact throws will certainly impress the judges as the superior fighter. Lets remember, MMA isn't just about pound and ground. Its about demonstrating skill, technique and heart. Hopefully, incorporating throwing techniques in grappling -MMA competition will seriously improve the game.

 

[scorcho]

This kind of blend would be great. I am sick and tired of watching BJJ guys pull guard and go for cappy double legs. Both arts would benefit for more interaction.

 

[triso]

At the same time I hate watching two people stand on their feet almost the entire length of the match playing the grip game, winning on a takedown, and avoiding ground work.

I love to see Judo throws and Wrestling takedowns, but I hate it when it becomes the primary focus of the match.

It would be nice to see more grappling comps featuring people who go for the takedown and then work the ground game after that. That's always my mentality.

 

[OldSkool]

Great example here;

The Camerillo brothers train with eachother, Judo/Bjj Mix. These two are the best at combining Judo/BJJ.

Video clip Link; http://armhunter.com/videos/camarillox2.wmv

Also Dave Camerillo's new book that is Judo/BJJ

Link; http://dcacademy.info/dvd.shtml

Good stuff!



BTW, these two guys were team mates of mine when we had BJ Penn, Terrell and others on our comp team, Dave Camerillo is an Olympic level Judo player and a BJJ BB.

Enjoy the video clip.

 

[Sixth]

The only thing is that Judo will begin to deteriorate when the gi comes off. Yes, I've done enough Judo in my life to know that it can be applied greatly out of a gi, but the fact remains that wrestling is too developed to be easily conquered by Judo. Most people that do submission grappling with a completely Judo mindset are sore to find that wrestling has an answer for pretty much everything that Judo has in the way of takedowns when out of a gi. Thousands of years of development don't fall to foot sweeps and a couple of sacrifice throws.
The important thing to know about having a Judo background is the fact that if you've trained seriously, you have all the tools to do well in grappling; Excellent balance, good insight and reflexes, knowledge of the ground game in general, and a superior ability to take the fight to the ground. After that, it's about technique and game plan, which is where I think Judo has to be augmented the most when being applied to other rule sets, most obvious of which being anything outside of a gi.
Everybody uses Jacare' as an example, so I'm really preaching to the crowd here, but that man is a terrific example of Judo and BJJ gone right. While it's true that Jacare' is simply gifted, and acts much out of pure athleticism, his underlying game plan is still there for anybody to admire.

 

[azjudoboxer**]

I might suggest the Hyastan Grappling Challenge, it's gi less grappling competitions, but many Judoka compete there. It awards points for throws, agressiveness, ground control,a nd subs. Most sport judoka don't really have a good game plan when throwing a guy to the ground becuase it's not a big concern in most Olympic Style Judo comps. But classic, combat oriented Judo has a game plan for when you hit the ground. Kano himself may have preferred throws, but many of the other masters came from strong ne waza backgrounds too. IF you no where to look you can find judo schools with a game plan gi, and no gi

 

[Q mystic]

I like the idea for more points for throws in the gi game but a problem is you cannot stop the pulling gaurd and that is all you have to do vs a tuff gi thrower. And it would be difficult in no-gi also because the grapplers will drop their stance to a crouch and shoot from there and there isn't alot that you can do about that.

I still believe that the best is to keep them separate. Maybe slight changes to each. Increase time on ground in a judo match as well as make ippon more difficult by throw. And increase the points for throw in bjj, although by too much and it could create more stalling.

Why don't those guys, that Jacare is throwing, just pull gaurd?

 

[Q mystic]

I might suggest the Hyastan Grappling Challenge, it's gi less grappling competitions, but many Judoka compete there. It awards points for throws, agressiveness, ground control,a nd subs. Most sport judoka don't really have a good game plan when throwing a guy to the ground becuase it's not a big concern in most Olympic Style Judo comps. But classic, combat oriented Judo has a game plan for when you hit the ground. Kano himself may have preferred throws, but many of the other masters came from strong ne waza backgrounds too. IF you no where to look you can find judo schools with a game plan gi, and no gi

If I fight a good judoka thrower in a no-gi match, I'll just crouch very low and keep shooting singles all day until I can pull him down. In grappling, you don't need to tie up if you don't want to.

 

[Q mystic]

The only thing is that Judo will begin to deteriorate when the gi comes off. Yes, I've done enough Judo in my life to know that it can be applied greatly out of a gi, but the fact remains that wrestling is too developed to be easily conquered by Judo. Most people that do submission grappling with a completely Judo mindset are sore to find that wrestling has an answer for pretty much everything that Judo has in the way of takedowns when out of a gi. Thousands of years of development don't fall to foot sweeps and a couple of sacrifice throws.
The important thing to know about having a Judo background is the fact that if you've trained seriously, you have all the tools to do well in grappling; Excellent balance, good insight and reflexes, knowledge of the ground game in general, and a superior ability to take the fight to the ground. After that, it's about technique and game plan, which is where I think Judo has to be augmented the most when being applied to other rule sets, most obvious of which being anything outside of a gi.
Everybody uses Jacare' as an example, so I'm really preaching to the crowd here, but that man is a terrific example of Judo and BJJ gone right. While it's true that Jacare' is simply gifted, and acts much out of pure athleticism, his underlying game plan is still there for anybody to admire.

In a clinch I still favor the judoka for the takedown, but in grappling you don't have to clinch if you don't want. You can just keep doing low shots or pull gaurd. That is the main difficulty for judoka in grappling matches. A wrestler shoots when withing reach and there is nothing you can do if it is low. A bjjer pulls gaurd at grasp and there is nothing really you can do. It is the unfortunate aspect of grappling that doesn't tie over smoothly in mma, where you are forced to clinch at times.

 

[Ybot]

Why don't those guys, that Jacare is throwing, just pull gaurd?

Because he doesn't let them. It really isn't easy to pull guard on a good guy. If you pull a half ass guard on Jacare it's passed before you can blink.

 

[Q mystic]

Because he doesn't let them. It really isn't easy to pull guard on a good guy. If you pull a half ass guard on Jacare it's passed before you can blink.

Don't know how he doesn't let them but good point about a possible takedown vs a for sure gaurd pass. That explains a lot. Damned if you do....

 

[Sixth]

Don't know how he doesn't let them but good point about a possible takedown vs a for sure gaurd pass. That explains a lot. Damned if you do....

It's true. If you watch the few guys that have tried to go down safe off of one of his throws, he's already passing when it hits the ground. He's got a good mind for his takedown game, and not just a guy with great technique; he really thinks ahead, and acts ahead.

Anyway, I would give a wrestler just as much chance, if not more, in the clinch with a Judoka. Just my opinion, though. You're entirely right about really low shots on Judoka; low shots, outside shots, and going through the back door seem to get the best of Judoka on most occasions. That's not a knock on Judo, it's just that you wouldn't expect a Judoka to defend those as well, as it's not a realistic scenario in Judo to see those situations ever really play out. It would be no diffent than seeing a wrestler wear a jacket and get shut out on grips. It's just all in what you train for.

 

[Q mystic]

It's true. If you watch the few guys that have tried to go down safe off of one of his throws, he's already passing when it hits the ground. He's got a good mind for his takedown game, and not just a guy with great technique; he really thinks ahead, and acts ahead.

Anyway, I would give a wrestler just as much chance, if not more, in the clinch with a Judoka. Just my opinion, though. You're entirely right about really low shots on Judoka; low shots, outside shots, and going through the back door seem to get the best of Judoka on most occasions. That's not a knock on Judo, it's just that you wouldn't expect a Judoka to defend those as well, as it's not a realistic scenario in Judo to see those situations ever really play out. It would be no diffent than seeing a wrestler wear a jacket and get shut out on grips. It's just all in what you train for.

I would need more for a debate on judo vs wrestling takedowns:icon_chee Actually wasn't too sure as I have seen soooo many but figured it was 'my little world' until I came out here and saw all this new and awesome worldly info. Serious.

But true, judos answer to low shots might at 1st be - turn to belly. After about 15 you expect them and start driving knee into them and let them 'have' you down when you are knee to chest. ( oh yeah, after 3 you get the makikomi attempt):icon_lol:

I would like a judo vs wrestling takedown debate.:icon_lol:

 

[Demogoblin]

bjj basically is judo without the throws .... unless you are talking about bjj no- gi grappling ...... you guys make too much of a big thing out of difference between them then it is

 

[Q mystic]

bjj basically is judo without the throws .... unless you are talking about bjj no- gi grappling ...... you guys make too much of a big thing out of difference between them then it is

Nope. It isn't. Technically maybe, but bjj has an easy win with sub and judo an easy win comes by top control or sub. No-gi grappling even more diff. Subs are more difficult and yet no easy win for top control either.

This sets styles of jujitsu.