BJJ Shock=Fedor choked out by Werdum Shock?

[Polvo]

Exactly. Werdum is very similar to Nogueira, but Nogueira had an iron chin back in his Pride days.

Except for the fact that Werdum is a better grappler than Nogueira?

 

[Mikey Triangles]

I see what you mean, but if not diving into a guy's guard for a frantic finish is the difference between winning and losing for Fedor...he won't do it. Sure, he's a creature of habit, he has his preferred attack like everyone else, but he's no spring chicken.

I'm not even talking about the same scenario. Fedor and Werdum both like takedowns from the clinch. fedor is better, so I think he'll counter a Werdum takedown with his own to end up back there. I'm not saying he'll come diving in frantically again.

 

[thegreenblender]

Except for the fact that Werdum is a better grappler than Nogueira?

people say this in such a black and white way. MMA or not, Nogueira/Werdum raises some question marks. That statement deserves some prefacing. Nog is the black sheep of the BJJ community, I swear to god...

 

[thegreenblender]

I'm not even talking about the same scenario. Fedor and Werdum both like takedowns from the clinch. fedor is better, so I think he'll counter a Werdum takedown with his own to end up back there. I'm not saying he'll come diving in frantically again.

That's the same thing, though. You honestly believe he'll be like, "Oh, Werdum's trying to take me down from the clinch...I'll counter with my own throw! That'll show him!" I'm pretty sure he's smart enough to recognize the only thing he should do is disengage, disengage, disengage.

 

[RacerX]

people say this in such a black and white way. MMA or not, Nogueira/Werdum raises some question marks. That statement deserves some prefacing. Nog is the black sheep of the BJJ community, I swear to god...

Exactly. People act like what happens in Mundials or ADCC is what happens in MMA.

 

[Polvo]

people say this in such a black and white way. MMA or not, Nogueira/Werdum raises some question marks. That statement deserves some prefacing. Nog is the black sheep of the BJJ community, I swear to god...

Its not black or white coming from a perspective of who has done better in BJJ competitions Werdum has done better with higher level grapplers. Nog has shown his BJJ in MMA is great, but when it comes to subbing grapplers Nog has never really submitted anyone of any grappling merit in MMA. He has shown his MMA BJJ to be effective, but never against pure grapplers.

Werdum has competed and won.

 

[redaxe]

It's possible, but I disagree. Much worse fight for Werdum than Fedor stylistically. a couple years ago? for sure, Werdum by submission no doubt, but not anymore. Brock seems to have adopted a very smothering and safe style of GnP

I think we can agree that Werdum is a better a grappler than Frank Mir though. He'd pose a pretty credible threat to Lesnar. If he can tap Fedor, I think he can tap Brock.

 

[Mikey Triangles]

That's the same thing, though. You honestly believe he'll be like, "Oh, Werdum's trying to take me down from the clinch...I'll counter with my own throw! That'll show him!" I'm pretty sure he's smart enough to recognize the only thing he should do is disengage, disengage, disengage.

we'll see.

 

[thegreenblender]

Its not black or white coming from a perspective of who has done better in BJJ competitions Werdum has done better with higher level grapplers. Nog has shown his BJJ in MMA is great, but when it comes to subbing grapplers Nog has never really submitted anyone of any grappling merit in MMA. He has shown his MMA BJJ to be effective, but never against pure grapplers.

Werdum has competed and won.

that's what I mean, though. The context here is MMA. We're talking about these guys now in the context of the recent fight. So, talking about MMA, is it really appropriate to say Werdum is better? I think when it all gets thrown together in MMA, their jiu-jitsu effectiveness breaks about even. It's also important to know that Nog's ground evolved a lot since Fedor, to judge him based on his first encounter with Fedor isn't fair. Since then he added many many wrinkles to his game, whereas he had gotten into the habit of just throwing up submission after submission because no one had an answer for it at the time.

 

[rarmonio8920]

I believe most people expected Fedor to be able to god his way out of any submission attempt or bad position because he's done it so many other times against other opponents, but none of them brought the exact combination of skills and attributes that Werdum brought. if they have a rematch I think it will go very similar, unless Fedor makes some massive changes.

In hindsight, looks like your prediction was 100% correct. I too thought that Werdum could pull off an upset like this, though I didn't expect it. The reason why people think so highly of Fedor is that despite some deficiencies in some areas, he's a cerebral and calm fighter, with great physical attributes, and excellent ability to finish fights.

Although he's not the biggest guy like Lesnar or Carwin, he's extremely explosive and quick for someone his size. He has decent technique for an elite level fighter, but he is nowhere near a technician in any of his skills. I think he's gotten by for so long because of his explosiveness. When guys would try to impose a technical game on him, he'd "punch them in the mouth" and rough them up... Sure he's sloppy, but he ALWAYS got the job done.

Against Nog and Crocop, he fought with them at their respective strengths--on the ground in Nog's guard, and on the feet with CroCop. I'm not suggesting the two wilted under pressure, but he was simply too "in their face" for them to handle and bring into their game.

It defies all logic that Fedor's done this "smashmouth" style of fighting and was undefeated for so long. Like you said, all it takes is a patient, technical fighter who can weather the storm.

I think when you have someone like Big Nog, who has had demonstrated more perseverance in his fights than any other MMA fighter in history, getting his guard sliced through by Fedor, it was easy to look off Werdum, who DOES have a better ground game than Nog. And given Fedor's past winning despite conventional logic, I could perfectly understand why no one gave Werdum a chance.

If Fedor is smart, in a rematch, he'll either work to improve his submission defense to avoid a repeat of the situation... OR... he'll either play a sprawl and brawl type strategy. He used to not care about his opponent's respective strengths and weaknesses, but it finally mattered last night to him. So maybe next time will be different.

 

[Polvo]

that's what I mean, though. The context here is MMA. We're talking about these guys now in the context of the recent fight. So, talking about MMA, is it really appropriate to say Werdum is better? I think when it all gets thrown together in MMA, their jiu-jitsu effectiveness breaks about even. It's also important to know that Nog's ground evolved a lot since Fedor, to judge him based on his first encounter with Fedor isn't fair. Since then he added many many wrinkles to his game, whereas he had gotten into the habit of just throwing up submission after submission because no one had an answer for it at the time.

I'm just saying who has Nog submitted in MMA to show the his grappling prowess is greater than Werdum's? Werdum has submitted Fedor which had previously not been done. Who has Nog submitted recently? Tim Sylivia. Werdum has submitted arguably the greatest MMA fighter to ever live so I don't know how you can say Nog is better. Nog beat mediocre grapplers with his grappling ability when BJJ was thought to be dieing (in MMA) because of his iron chin. When he faced a great grappler (in Fedor) he was unable to do anything. I know you are saying you can't judge just based on there first fight, but what has Nog done since then?

 

[rarmonio8920]

What's Good everyone? I was reading some of these threads & just wanted to know what everyone's opinion on what it would take to give people the same feeling of how I felt when Fedor got choked out by Werdum. What match & outcome in BJJ gave you the most depressed & hopeless feeling weather the match actually happened or if something were to happen in BJJ.

As an example, if Roger Gracie were to tap (not just lose but tap) to someone in his weight class or open weight class.

What are your guy's thoughts? Did anyone have this feeling when Marcelo Garcia lost?

In other words, what would be the BJJ equivalent to such a shocking upset? Well, you COULD say Marcelo's loss to Drysdale is comparable, but Marcelo has been submitted and/or lost before.

Roger Gracie tapping to someone would be the equivalent though. He's never been submitted at the highest levels, just as Fedor has never been finished in MMA.

I think the next question would be... would it be AS shocking if, say, Xande or Jacare would be the ones who submitted him? ... If you told me that, I probably wouldn't be AS shocked as Fedor/Werdum. Xande came close to a triangle in ADCC 2005 and Jacare is a beast.

 

[StranGold**]

I think we can agree that Werdum is a better a grappler than Frank Mir though. He'd pose a pretty credible threat to Lesnar. If he can tap Fedor, I think he can tap Brock.

what kind of logic is this?

you really underestimate brock. Brock is a better grappler than fedor. brock has no sub skills, but his takedowns and top control are pretty sick.

brock was beating the shit out of mir the first time around before the knee bar. the second time he obliterated mir like a child.

there is not much of a point arguing brock vs fedor as it will never happen. but after seeing fedor's last 2 fights I would put money on brock in a heart beat.

 

[StranGold**]

That's the same thing, though. You honestly believe he'll be like, "Oh, Werdum's trying to take me down from the clinch...I'll counter with my own throw! That'll show him!" I'm pretty sure he's smart enough to recognize the only thing he should do is disengage, disengage, disengage.

he wasn't smart enough to not jump into his guard though. so he ain't that smart. sorry he lost. he got dominated. he had a minute to escape from the triangle and could not. get over it.

I swear, werdum got lucky with a triangle but fedor landing a punch on a flying AA after getting punch up is not luck. lol.

hopefully we see fedor vs overeem. then overeem can handle him the same way he did to brett.

 

[bjjHERRERA]

It looked like an armbar to me (ude hishigi sankaku gatame).

yup.

 

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

So at what point is it OK to talk openly about the result of a fight? If you haven't seen the fight yet, and you come log in to Sherdog, you're probably a moron and deserve to have the fight spoiled for you. This forum is for discussing MMA fights!

No, there has always been an implicit rule that you write *spoiler* in the thread title if you are going to discuss a brand new fight, so that the morons as you call them can decide for themselves if they want to know the result or not.

 

[GSparky]

I was arguing with my team mates at open mat about this all day yesterday. Everyone talks about fedor like he's a god because he always comes out on top, but they always forget some of the horrible mistakes he made during the fight. Fedor is so great because he has the best mind for fighting and is unbelievably adaptable to every situation, but his technical skills aren't that great in certain areas.

I called Werdum to win this one and by the end of open mat actually convinced 2 others at my academy with the logic behind it. I said picture how you think this fights going to go based on previous opponents. look at their exact skills and attributes on paper without looking at their fight records.

Fedor gets a knockdown and frantically runs in to finish, opponent barely manages to recover. than fedor goes for some stupid attack and ends up in a sub attempt or on his back. Do you really think he'll manage to get up or get out against a grappler like Werdum???


On paper without looking at the records and only looking at analytical data of how each fights werdum is the most dangerous fighter Fedor has ever faced for his style. Stylistically Werdum matches up really bad for Fedor. we know Werdum can take abuse and recover well, he has good takedowns, great sweeps, even greater submissions, and a constantly active and dangerous guard.


I believe most people expected Fedor to be able to god his way out of any submission attempt or bad position because he's done it so many other times against other opponents, but none of them brought the exact combination of skills and attributes that Werdum brought. if they have a rematch I think it will go very similar, unless Fedor makes some massive changes.

With that said I don't think Werdum is the best at all. just one of the very few that possesed the right game to expose Fedor's weaknesses. I don't believe Werdum is capable of beating many of the fighters Fedor can. Also as sure as I as that Werdum would win I still turned down the many bets all my team-mates were throwing at me. I'm undefeated in betting on MMA fights, and a good way to stay that way is not bet against Fedor. No matter how bad i thought this fight was for him a small part of me expected him to come out on top.

Well you really called the fight very well. I had the same mind set to an extent. When I break down fights, I usually just come up with 2-5 different ways that the fight could go in MMA. I rarely decide which of the 2-5 ways will actually happen though unless 1 of the fighters are 1 dimentional. I wouldn't consider Werdum 1 dimentional because he has been working hard on his striking, he isn't a threatening striker but he is improving.

I saw that Fedor could run into all those problems that you mentioned but I'd follow Fedor into a a cage full of wild tigers. It could be Fedor vs God, you can point out all the things that God could do to Fedor, no matter how much God has going for him, I would reply with, "But it's Fedor." Fedor isn't a god but he reminds me of Akiles from the movie Troy. No matter what he goes up against or how much danger is ahead, he always perservers. I would have lost my house on this fight, blind confidence is never good but that's what I had.

 

[GSparky]

How about not giving away the fight in the thread title for people who didn't see the fight yet ?

Anyways I think Fedor was a bit careless and overconfident in that fight.

But hey it's MMA and anything can happen, even to Fedor. It doesn't change his status in my mind, it just shows that he's human and can be defeated, just like the greatest in all sports.

Need to look at the heavies and contenders, to see all the noob threads like "Fedor exposed" and the likes.

I do appologise for giving away the outcome in the title. I didn't know how else to mention this so people would understand what the thread was about. Sorry.

 

[GSparky]

No, there has always been an implicit rule that you write *spoiler* in the thread title if you are going to discuss a brand new fight, so that the morons as you call them can decide for themselves if they want to know the result or not.

I do appologise for giving away the outcome in the title. I didn't know how else to mention this so people would understand what the thread was about. Sorry.

 

[GSparky]

he wasn't smart enough to not jump into his guard though. so he ain't that smart. sorry he lost. he got dominated. he had a minute to escape from the triangle and could not. get over it.

I swear, werdum got lucky with a triangle but fedor landing a punch on a flying AA after getting punch up is not luck. lol.

hopefully we see fedor vs overeem. then overeem can handle him the same way he did to brett.

Well from what it looks like, Fedor will rematch Werdum before Werdum fights Overeem. Strikeforce was wanting Fedor to win so he could finally fight Overeem. They have invested so much money into Fedor & they want to rebuild whatever image that he's lost. I will bet money that a Fedor rematch will happen next before an Overeem rematch.

I do wonder how much trouble Strikeforce could possibly be in. How many fights does Werdum have left on his contract with Strikeforce. Let's say that Werdum rematches Fedor & beats him. I don't think it will happen but let's just say it does. Werdum could possibly go to the UFC after that. Unless his contract isn't up, then he may fight Overeem & possibly win. UFC is already taking Jake Shields & Strikeforce was stuck with a Dan Henderson's huge contract.

Someone said this on youtube & I can definitly see where they are coming from when they said this but Strikeforce is starting to fall into the same steps that ElixeXC did.