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Bjj Secrets in 2010?

Discussion in 'Grappling Technique' started by McBain, Oct 7, 2010.

  1. McBain Orange Belt

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    I'm going quote the contrasting perspectives of two forum members on the topic and maybe we can get a good discussion going.

    Drew Foster recently visited 50/50 for a few days and has sworn an oath of secrecy in order to keep the training methods of the school confidential. It's not clear wether Ryan Hall or somebody else at the gym told him to do this or whether Drew just took it upon himself.

    Ryan Hall has said in an (excellent) interview that the elite of bjj have their secrets. Interestingly, his former teacher Lloyd Irvin has also said in an interview that there are secrets that others don
     
  2. McBain Orange Belt

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    I agree with Balto's view and I'll give two reasons why.

    1) If some schools are doing something special that others arent to know about, then these schools would logically take measures to protext their training methods and techniques. One possible extreme option for example would be close the school to outsiders and not allow drop ins. But these schools dont do that. Anyobody can just pay money and drop in to these schools to train and learn about how they train.

    2) Almost everything in bjj can be bought at a price. Just pay somebody enough and he will teach you. So in a kind of weird twist, although Hall in Irvin talk bout secrets in bjj, the elite of the sport seem quite open to teaching them. In fact Atos team members Raphael Mendes and Bruno Frazatto are even willing to train each other's opponents! After the Mundials, Frazatto taught at 50/50 while the Mendes bros were at TLI.

    Anyway, these are my thoughts, what are yours?
     
  3. KyleS White Belt

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    The secret was the training methods, not technique. Technique only remains a secret if no one sees it, and that happens the first time it's used in comp. Training methods are seen only if you actually train with the folks with the double-secret methods.

    It sounds all very "Kung Fu"-ish, but I can believe these secrets exist.
     
  4. lethalazn Purple Belt

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    Yes: there are details invisible to the naked eye that instructors may not teach to certain students/other schools so he/his own students can maintain an edge over competition. Roger/Rickson Gracie may teach people these "invisible" details at the right price (school fee, seminar) which WILL dramatically improve their game but it wouldn't be surprising if there are STILL a few details that they kept to themselves. After all, who wouldn't want to have a tiny little edge in competition?

    No: These "secrets" can be discovered by other practitioners with enough practice, common sense, luck, proper circumstances and TIME (of course the fastest way would be just to learn the secret from the person who knows it.) Also, knowing these secrets don't necessarily guarantee success (nor does not knowing these secrets and going against someone that does guarantee failure), other variables still come into play.

    Many people claim Roger Gracie knows things about the Mount/Cross Collar Choke that nobody else knows, while there's a good chance this is true, that is not the sole reason why he beats everybody, he's also trained since childhood, trains all the time and is a pretty big buy

    On the other hand you have Kron Gracie, since he's Rickson's son, he probably knows many things about BJJ that even other elite competitors do not (i.e. his opponents), however he still lost to Marcelo (in spite of putting up a really good fight), with lack of experience being one of the factors
     
  5. gannas Green Belt

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    Disagree, its not he technique thats a secret its the details within it that make it a higher percentage technique. For instance I've seen armbar from mount taught by several instructors and watch many DVD's and youtube videos on it. Most details are the same but one instructor added some additional details I hadnt seen before. These few details changed the technique. It went from being a medium percentage move to being a medium-high percentage technique. Watching it in a tournament or video you dont see all the details.

    So I'm not sure if this is what people refer to as there being secrets between one school to the next, However I do know that small details in how the tech is taught do exist to the point where it can make a technique much more successful and easier to land.
     
  6. iheartthemount Blue Belt

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    I think sooner or later if it is done in competition enough people will know these "new techniques". They may not perfect them but they'll see it.

    It's okay to keep these to yourself but BJJ is all about evolution and as soon as one person develops a counter, that person will develop a counter to the counter and so on.

    So whether they keep it a secret or not is of not real importance to me because I think sooner or later people will talk about it.

    But am I interested if there's some dude in brazil or somewhere else that has developed a technique and is not sharing it except with a few people who in return will never show it to anyone else? Sure. But it's almost illogical to even care about something we'll never see. Now if it was a technique that we all saw but had no freaking idea how to even come close to doing it, even after slowing it down and the top guys in the world watched it...and still nothing....then it would be a different story.
     
  7. ijustwannasurf Brown Belt

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    +1

    Teaching someone how to understand and manipulate their body is the base of all techniques. How a specific team imparts this information could be seen as proprietary- I say good for them. The rest of us are going to work just as hard to conceptualize our approach, and the end result will be fiercer competition and the evolution of the art.
     
  8. Kenny from MD Less angry than before.

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    Its not secret techniques, its more efficient ways to execute them. The proof is that the majority of schools teach techniques and leave out important details. Some schools figure these things out, some don't. Some readily share them, some don't. Ryan will show you things if you come to him, we just don't make it a point to spread it around just for the sake of talking about it on the internet and stuff.

    For example, last week I was training with Bruno Frazatto. We were working on passing the RDLR guard. Tornado guard. Whatever stupid name it has. I have had at least five people teach me this same pass. Not one of them added the details Bruno added. He corrected me the very instant I was not in the perfect position, and it made all the difference for control. Off the top of my head, my foot was too far away from my sparring partner to apply appropriate pressure, and then it was too close so they could easily swing to deep half guard. My foot was turned the 90 degrees in the wrong direction, and thus my base was affected, and because my base was able to be moved, I couldnt apply appropriate pressure. My head was too high, and the pressure from my right arm was directed too low on their body. He adjusted the way my arm was turned and it made me able to hold the right side of their body flat. These are details you would not notice just by watching a match, so if you think that this stuff will just "come out" over time, you are wrong. It comes out by people studying these positions intensely and scrutinizing them.

    In the next pass, the adjustment was the pant grip I was using. My knuckles needed to be facing down to appropriately control their leg, and they had been facing 90 degrees the wrong way, towards them.

    To use Roger as an example, he is not doing the same thing as anyone, no matter how basic his jiu jitsu looks. Why is he able to easily do things everyone else struggles with? Why is he able to make things look so easy? Because he understands the adjustments that need to be made for success and for the body mechanics to work the correct way, and has drilled it enough that these small details have become second nature and automatic. If you think Roger is "just good" you are naive and not looking at things critically and you should go pick up a book about creationism and be content with never being able to reach a comprehensive understanding of why things work.

    The problem with these kind of explanations is that many cannot grasp them without FEELING and drilling what is being talked about and thus they misinterpret them. And what's worse is they just have to justify and expand upon their misinterpretations because the internet loves to talk.
     
  9. navita Orange Belt

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    I have little details that I have been shown randomly by bjj coaches, that would be considered 'secret' It's the same technique everyone else does, just with little variations that make it more effective. Occasionally I will show a teammate it, especially if they like to compete, or they ask about it... But I wouldn't show someone I competed against, it.. end of story...They're my little details...If I ever had my own gym yes, I would show them.

    If you want to keep secret techniques secret.... Don't show them when there are visitors at your gym. Don't swear anyone to secrecy, etc. that's just dumb. But no my team doesn't have secret techniques, just extra little details to the techniques that are already out there.
     
  10. ShanghaiBJJ Brown Belt

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    Great post Kenny!
     
  11. redaxe Silver Belt

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    Are you addressing anyone in particular here, or did you just write this because you didn't have a specific person to insult, but feel that no comment is complete without a few harsh put-downs?

    I mean, I agree with everything you said, and I really do appreciate the pearls of knowledge. Obviously you put a lot into your jiu-jitsu, and most of the stuff you write is insightful, good advice. I'm just not sure why you can't seem to share your knowledge without also attacking someone. If you hate Sherdoggers so much and think we're all idiots, why do you even read all this shit we write? Do you have some kind of pent-up anger or frustration that you can only let out on Sherdog? Is this just your sense of humor? Or is this actually how you talk to people in real life?
     
  12. armtriangle Brown Belt

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    We JUST had Roger in and we spent at least 90 minutes covering his mount and cross choke. He had details, but nothing entirely new. I am convinced that his mount is good because he has gotten good at using his specific body type and traits to their maximum potential. I don't think he can teach his mount to anyone. I just think the minor details are really dependent on your specific makeup...

    There are no secrets, IMO. There are only details that work for one guy, which may or may not work for you.

    The closest thing to a secret I have run across was Braulio's philosophy on posture control and attacking from guard. He drills his whole guard game differently than anyone else I have seen. But it may just be the way he explains it too... still, I can't do what he does (and never will be able to because of physical limitations) even though I know how he does it now.
     
  13. anaconda Full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.

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    Theres no room for secrets in BJJ.

    Ryan doesn't keep secrets from people. Lloyd doesn't keep secrets from people (I think you misinterpreted his comments).

    You know who kept secret techniques? Rorian Gracie. And look how the game passed him buy.

    You want to know a secret about bjj? The hard you train, the more you drill a technique, the better success you will have with that technique. Show me ONE guy who has ever been at the top of bjj that doesn't work their freaking ass off - one guy that doesn't spend hours in the gym, drilling and rolling and training their game.

    You can't, because those guys don't exist.

    Of course there are better, and more efficient ways to train, and having a good instructor who can teach you will definitely shorten the time it takes to learn. Thats a big part of the reason why people are getting belts way faster than they used to. In a few years I believe 5 and 6 year black belts will be the norm.

    What Kenny said is all true, but it has nothing to do with "secrets." Bruno just happens to understand that technique better than anyone else. Its not like it was a secret technique he wanted to bestow on this skinny gringo from DC :)
     
  14. anaconda Full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.

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    I agree wholeheartedly.

    Roger has probably drilled that choke from mount more than other people have drilled every position they ever knew. That, plus body type, a complete game, etc, makes hiim that much better.

    Of course there is a line where physical traits, natural ability, and the like will start to play a larger and larger role. This occurs at the margins, among the very worst (noobs) and the very best (separating the elite from the not so elite black belts).
     
  15. ShanghaiBJJ Brown Belt

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    There is of course stuff that is being only taught to the students that are at the academy constantly. But I guess it is not because of trying to keep secrets, but rather due to time constraints and because people don't bother to teach everyone everything they know, if they aren't even sure if they will see them again.

    I think you need to invest in the academy (time and effort, not just money), for the teachers to invest everything into you.
     
  16. lechien Gold Belt

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    If I paid for a private with a famous instructor, I would not divulge to a public forum all the details of the techniques he taught me.

    I have too much respect for the instructor.
     
  17. peregrine Kahuna Dog

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    kewl, the week before that he was at my gym. I learned a great deal.

    ts- secrets, no. Efficiency of technique, yes. Efficiency of training, yes. Active coaching with instant feedback, yes.

    On a coaching topic, I wish my coach would give me instant feedback as we roll. Actively commentating and stopping rolls mid roll to make adjustments to either person. Instantly stopping errors and making adjustments. This would be great part of the time for certain types of rolls.
     
  18. peregrine Kahuna Dog

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    Can you elaborate. Braulio was at our gym this summer for a short period and I don't forsee what you mean.
    Basically he attacked from an angle. If he decided to he used the gi to lock you down. The concept is the same in attacking from the guard that I've been taught. Attack the posture, attack from an angle.
     
  19. NJrocks Blue Belt

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    There are absolutely, 100% without a doubt small details in every move (secrets) that make all of the difference, that you would never pick up by just watching. So you can learn them one of two ways...

    1) Drill, Practice, Tweak, Roll, Train hard for a LONG TIME and figure it out yourself, maybe not until black belt.
    2) Be a purple belt people like and have someone tell you, helping you that much more to learn the tricks earlier/make you better faster.
     
  20. MMA junkie Purple Belt

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    Maybe at the earlier levels your instructors want you to figure these out on your own. Figuring out things on your own can help yourself develop. I have had my instructors give me little details in technique while they see me doing them while rolling. I don't question why they didn't explain this when they initially went over the move, I believe in them and believe they have a method to their teaching. I am not that special for him to just show me a little detail and think it is a "secret" he just randomly decided to give me.
     

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