BJJ learning styles

[Oldguy]

I think for people who are not gifted (me), drilling is the key to getting better.

When, I did Shotokan Karate, they believed you really did not know a technique until you did it 10,000 times. There were guys that would train for 24 hours straight just doing a simple step in punch (oizuki). At a typical class, we would do the same kata over 100 times in a row taking 2 hours to complete.

I have seen the truth of this in BJJ too. I have been drilling very basic moves, that I think I have down pat, over and over again. I always learn some subtle detail that I didn't realize before I started drilling.

This is the exact thing I am working on now. Drilling the basics over and over again.

 

[Thai Otoshi]

I was meaning that BJJ schools that have drilling classes often get low turn out for them.

Similar to how if a BJJ school puts in a wrestling/judo class they often get lower turnout of people too. Not the amount of drilling in those styles.

I just worded it poorly.

Ah gotcha gotcha...

twice is a bit extreme...but I guarantee if I focused on a judo technique 70 - 30 sparring to drilling it would be much then if I worked on the same technique 30 - 70

That's just fucking absurd.

Without thousands of reps (yes you read that right) drilling entries, kuzushi, setups, and variations, how can you honestly feel that you could reliably perform a technique in randori?

Not to mention that you might only get a handful of opportunities, if any at all, to actually use a given technique in randori. What if the throw you never rep, but feel confident in is o soto gari, but their position is better suited for a harai goshi with an over the top belt grip? What if your "0 reps, 100% confidence" throw is tai otoshi, but they're standing on their heels asking for an o soto?

 

[SummerStriker]

Ah gotcha gotcha...



That's just fucking absurd.

Without thousands of reps (yes you read that right) drilling entries, kuzushi, setups, and variations, how can you honestly feel that you could reliably perform a technique in randori?

Not to mention that you might only get a handful of opportunities, if any at all, to actually use a given technique in randori. What if the throw you never rep, but feel confident in is o soto gari, but their position is better suited for a harai goshi with an over the top belt grip? What if your "0 reps, 100% confidence" throw is tai otoshi, but they're standing on their heels asking for an o soto?

That is a part of what I think is so cool about grappling. Striking is sort of like batting. You got to spend a lot of time batting, and not just in the cage, to be good at it. Technique alone doesn't mean shit, and it might not mean shit ever against some people. The ability to either hit trade, or read and return faster than an opponent, and much faster against a competent hit trader, are abilities you can only get from sparring and are the prerequisite for even performing a technique besides a basic one off strike when someone gives you the perfect positioning. You can be just dynamite on the pads and not be able to do anything.

But man, with grappling, a white belt with like just a few months of training can get into a defensive posture that is so hard to crack that an advanced blue belt must stabilize and attack the position, taking time and presenting positions to the white belt that are just exactly like drilling, and persist in them for whole seconds, so that the white belt can actualize something for the first time against a fully resisting and more skilled opponent that was only theory until then. It is beautiful.

Why would you give that up and just fight and flail to see what comes out randomly?

 

[snakeybizz]

Ah gotcha gotcha...



That's just fucking absurd.

Without thousands of reps (yes you read that right) drilling entries, kuzushi, setups, and variations, how can you honestly feel that you could reliably perform a technique in randori?

Not to mention that you might only get a handful of opportunities, if any at all, to actually use a given technique in randori. What if the throw you never rep, but feel confident in is o soto gari, but their position is better suited for a harai goshi with an over the top belt grip? What if your "0 reps, 100% confidence" throw is tai otoshi, but they're standing on their heels asking for an o soto?

you are basing your view on opinion but I am basing mine on scientific fact... you will get absolutely no benefit of practising a technique a thousand times against an unresisting opponent..absolute fact right there... widely accepted by high level coaches in any sport

you hit that same technique in sparring a thousand times though? well then you are certainly making a case for mastery...i'd rather hit an armbar 1,000 times in rolling then drilling any day

you must drill...but not nearly as much as you should spar/roll/DO YOUR SPORT

 

[lechien]

There is many ways for people to learn things.

That is why one style of teaching is just not good enough,

I teach by position and action instead of just techniques.

Topic repeats itself every 12 weeks. long enough to cover 12 topics

It is covered over 2 classes in gi and nogi. so it is long enough to graps some of the concepts.

20 min teaching concepts and drilling. then 10 min situational rolling.

Some guys just learn by rolling while others learn by rolling.

I am away for 2 weeks on holidays.

The other BB will teach the beginners for the next 2 weeks.

We left drills to win book at the Dojo.

The blue belts and above will be left on their own to choose any drills from the book and drill for 30 minutes. Good time!

 

[snakeybizz]

There is many ways for people to learn things.

That is why one style of teaching is just not good enough,

I teach by position and action instead of just techniques.

Topic repeats itself every 12 weeks. long enough to cover 12 topics

It is covered over 2 classes in gi and nogi. so it is long enough to graps some of the concepts.

20 min teaching concepts and drilling. then 10 min situational rolling.

Some guys just learn by rolling while others learn by rolling.

I am away for 2 weeks on holidays.

The other BB will teach the beginners for the next 2 weeks.

We left drills to win book at the Dojo.

The blue belts and above will be left on their own to choose any drills from the book and drill for 30 minutes. Good time!

yes I agree there are many ways to skin a cat

for me the ultimate session for optimal technique improvement would be:

2 - 3 techniques MAX from the SAME position for example
arm bar defence...1 technique to prevent...2. a technique to get out with your hands clasped....3. a last ditch technique when its on (hitch-hiker escape)

spend 30 mins drilling the above...get in plenty of reps in that time
then 30 mins situational sparring from the arm bar postilion
then 30 mins sparring from anywhere

that works out at about 70:30 ratio like I said before... this shit isn't aikido I'm not drilling for 1 hour and 30 mins

for me and the way my brain works this is the best

 

[smc]

you are basing your view on opinion but I am basing mine on scientific fact... you will get absolutely no benefit of practising a technique a thousand times against an unresisting opponent..absolute fact right there... widely accepted by high level coaches in any sport

you hit that same technique in sparring a thousand times though? well then you are certainly making a case for mastery...i'd rather hit an armbar 1,000 times in rolling then drilling any day

you must drill...but not nearly as much as you should spar/roll/DO YOUR SPORT

Your argument provides equal amount of reps for a certain technique in both drilling and sparring. Your argument is also assuming that people who drill never, or rarely spar. Neither of these assumptions are common in my experience.

I can go to the gym and knock out 50 armbars in a matter of minutes drilling with a partner (who can offer some resistance as well) and improve my hip movement and ability to hit that armbar. I can also be coached while doing so to improve on my technique.

I can go to the gym and when in good shape (which I'm not now) get in maybe 3-5 rounds of sparring. In that amount of time, it's not even guaranteed I'm going to be in a position to throw up 1 armbar against a resisting opponent. How many sessions do I need to go before I hit 50?

And that's just to catch up what I did in drilling in minutes. I can drill that 50 every day. You mean to tell me that in a realistic training environment (not your "well 50 armbars in sparring are better than 50 in drilling" dream scenario), that you believe you can even come close to the amount of reps in sparring that you can drilling?

That's ridiculous. And when someone is "learning", or haven't mastered the concepts yet, throwing up bad armbars over and over isn't going to help them either.

Yes, you need sparring, it is important to development. No, it isn't a fact that drilling doesn't give you any benefit. There isn't one sport I have EVER seen where they don't do drills. Basketball you do passing/shooting drills. Do you think quarterbacks only throw the ball in live scenarios? Linemen don't push sleds? No fielding drills for baseball players either. I mean, come on, pitchers actually throw pitches outside of real live baseball?

Your assertion is ridiculous and no coach would ever say that repping drills that are conducive to gameplay gives you zero benefit. You are way too loose with the words "science" and "fact". I'd love to see some peer reviewed studies illustrating these scientific facts though.

 

[SummerStriker]

Snakey's view is pretty common internet wisdom. He's just expressing it in a difficult to follow way.

30 minutes drilling, 30 positional sparring, 30 rolling is pretty conventional. It is more positional rolling than I've seen in any club I've been in, but it is typical.

It is also similar to what Inosanto teaches about how to learn striking arts - 1/3 alone in the air, 1/3 partner drills and 1/3 sparring. Partner drills can be quite rough.

 

[smc]

Snakey's view is pretty common internet wisdom. He's just expressing it in a difficult to follow way.

Is he though?

you are basing your view on opinion but I am basing mine on scientific fact... you will get absolutely no benefit of practising a technique a thousand times against an unresisting opponent..absolute fact right there... widely accepted by high level coaches in any sport

 

[SummerStriker]

Is he though?

spend 30 mins drilling the above...get in plenty of reps in that time
then 30 mins situational sparring from the arm bar postilion
then 30 mins sparring from anywhere

Maybe he shifted the goal posts or maybe he wasn't clear, but this is the conventional Sherdog wisdom. He is counting positional sparring as sparring while most people count it as drilling.

 

[Thai Otoshi]

you are basing your view on opinion but I am basing mine on scientific fact... you will get absolutely no benefit of practising a technique a thousand times against an unresisting opponent..absolute fact right there... widely accepted by high level coaches in any sport

you hit that same technique in sparring a thousand times though? well then you are certainly making a case for mastery...i'd rather hit an armbar 1,000 times in rolling then drilling any day

you must drill...but not nearly as much as you should spar/roll/DO YOUR SPORT

I don't know if you've taken a famous coach's quote out of context and misconstrued its meaning, or are talking simple bro science. What you're describing leads to being able to perform a technique live, but not being able to perform a technique live consistently. The only way to reliably perform a technique with the speed and precision to actually work against a resisting opponent is to ingrain it into your muscle memory, and the only way to develop muscle memory is through repetition.

If you think I'm talking out of my ass, go to your judo coach and tell him what you're telling me. Make sure you wear earplugs for their guffaws.

 

[Thai Otoshi]

Snakey's view is pretty common internet wisdom. He's just expressing it in a difficult to follow way.

30 minutes drilling, 30 positional sparring, 30 rolling is pretty conventional. It is more positional rolling than I've seen in any club I've been in, but it is typical.

It is also similar to what Inosanto teaches about how to learn striking arts - 1/3 alone in the air, 1/3 partner drills and 1/3 sparring. Partner drills can be quite rough.

This makes a lot more sense.

 

[BwamSolid]

get a big fitness ball, tie a gi top to it, and drill the fuck outta any gi-top related techniques without an expensive dummy or a partner. Still drilling with my ball to this day, worked wonders for rolling setup techniques. Originally did the ball thing because I couldn't find anybody in my academy who was free for open mat.

One of the craziest things about drilling I learned was when I went to Renzo Gracie Academy in NYC. Talked to some amazing black belts who literally picked a technique a week and drilled that technique 3 hours a day for 6 days that week, then picked another technique the next week. The dedication that takes is unbelievable. Drilling > rolling all day, its the basics that get ya.

Must be easy as hell to go for a technique when you spent 18 hours in a week religiously working on it.

Just picked up a stability ball last week. What do you mean by tie a gi top on it? Pardon my ignorence but to you tie it all around it and use the loose sleeves to practice subs? Sounds intresting I'd like to know more. Thanks

 

[Osstopher McGi]

Just picked up a stability ball last week. What do you mean by tie a gi top on it? Pardon my ignorence but to you tie it all around it and use the loose sleeves to practice subs? Sounds intresting I'd like to know more. Thanks

Yeah I'd like to know just quite how to do this, too, please.

I had been operating under the impression that drilling against a non-resisting opponent was more about getting the movements ingrained to a "subconscious" level so that rather then going "Ok, grab here, clamp there, shift hips this way," step-by-step as you are doing when you are actually rolling, you will instead be like "hit this move" or "hit that move" kind of like how if you stood up from your chair right now you wouldn't go "shift weight forwards, engage ankles and knees, drive forward from hips and upward with knees" because you had done it so many times before that the movement is just "stand up". Have I got this wrong?

 

[Knock Out Ned]

Look bro, I'm just not going to drill, okay? My groin hurts. My left groin. Yeah I pulled it or something. I don't know how. That part is not important. What is important is that I'm just going to sit here and butterfly stretch that bad boy out, all right?

And when we roll, I need you to go about 29%. What does 29% mean? I'll lay it out for you since you seem new around here. 29% means whenever I do a move and it works, you were going 29%. If I do a move and you do something to make it not work, that's way harder than 29%. And that makes you a spaz.

That's a good one.

That's why I never spar with someone who tells me they are injured. I say, "no thanks" and tell them we can roll when they are better.