Bicep Cutter Unsportsmanlike?

[platfox]

I learned the bicep slicer from guard like the second week I trained from one of the blue belts. I visited another school while on vacation and used it on another white belt. I didn't think anything of it and the guy was cool, he just tapped and we moved on. Looking back, he probably thought I was a dick.

 

[lechien]

So for you, it is ok to do a slicer as long as he is defending the arm bar and NOT get called for it? because it is just a grip break.

Bur once he let go of the defense due to the pressure of the slicer then he taps out from the arm bar.

 

[Kimuralex]

Biceps slicers are only allowed at Brown Belts under IBJJF rules.

Some guys like to train under such rules and some do not.

I think TS was training for a competition that allows biceps slicers anyway.

this is basically it, what belt are you and ur partner? and was it in the gi? that would answer it basically

 

[Fedorzilla]

So for you, it is ok to do a slicer as long as he is defending the arm bar and NOT get called for it? because it is just a grip break.

Bur once he let go of the defense due to the pressure of the slicer then he taps out from the arm bar.

Well (I guess you're responding to me), for me it's similar to positioning for a kneebar sub/sweep. You don't have to apply the submission just because you can. If you react to defend the knee bar, even where prohibited, and I get a different sweep based on your reaction, I don't see how you can be upset. If I apply the knee bar and you tap, you can raise a complaint about the illegal submission.

Similarly, here it sounds like the TS is being criticized for a submission that he didn't even apply. It's absurd to me.

 

[lechien]

Similarly, here it sounds like the TS is being criticized for a submission that he didn't even apply. It's absurd to me.

I am not too convinced on that one. maybe I just getting confused.

he used the slicer to break the grip. so if the guy do not let go of the grip, then he gets a slicer, if he lets go then he get submitted via arm bar. but he does not want to get call for a slicer.

It is like saying you used a can opener to only open the closed guard, once it is opened then you let go of the can opener so you should not get called for it. but what happen if the guy does not want to open the closed guard = can opener.

 

[Balto]

How is a submission unsportsmanlike? I can see banning certain ones for safety (heel hooks come to mind), but unsportsmanlike is silly.

Honestly, if these guys are competitors like you say, they better be prepared for that. You can easily break the armbar grip using a bicep slicer type of pressure without the ref being able to see it. As long as you aren't blatantly using it to submit, I don't see a ref calling you for it.

It just looks like you are pulling on the arm because that is in fact all you are doing. The only reason it is a bicep slicer is because the guy is purposely clasping his hands together. If he just decides to stop resisting, the bicep slicer pressure goes away. It's really more of a grip break than a submission because only a moron would stay there, but there are stubborn guys out there I guess.

 

[PerfectBalance]

This move is money I did three today from the armbar setup. I train at a no gi school and no one there seem to mind.

 

[Balto]

I am not too convinced on that one. maybe I just getting confused.

he used the slicer to break the grip. so if the guy do not let go of the grip, then he gets a slicer, if he lets go then he get submitted via arm bar. but he does not want to get call for a slicer.

It is like saying you used a can opener to only open the closed guard, once it is opened then you let go of the can opener so you should not get called for it. but what happen if the guy does not want to open the closed guard = can opener.

The can opener is really obvious though when you reach for it.

The bicep slicer grip break (the way I do at least) just involves me threading the bony part of my wrist into the space between the bicep and forearm. I don't hold the arm to trap it in any way since it's not actually meant to catch the bicep slicer submission. It just looks like I am pulling on his arm to break his grip, which is basically what I am doing. I just happen to be pulling against a painful and weak part to make it more effective.

There are several other grip breaks that I like more than this one so I don't use it too much. It is also of questionable legality as people are pointing out. But from a purely cutthroat perspective, I doubt a ref would be able to catch this. Most refs don't even pay attention enough to know if you've choked a guy out, let alone pay attention enough to tell if you are putting pressure on his bicep when you are pulling on his arm.

 

[POPPA ROTZEE]

At first glance I would say hell no, but if you are not higher than a brown belt and they are not higher than a brown belt, than they may be used to playing under IBJJF rules where bicep cutters are illegal. They may consider it a cheap shot since you are going for a move that they shouldnt have to prepare for, kind of like being punched from guard.

Either way, they still sound like menstruating bitches.

Yeah, but not everyone competes and live sparring should encompass everyone's training. Now, if a tournament is coming up or you are both active competitors I can see him ASKING you not to go for it...but I still think they were being pussies.

 

[lechien]

The can opener is really obvious though when you reach for it.

The bicep slicer grip break (the way I do at least) just involves me threading the bony part of my wrist into the space between the bicep and forearm. I don't hold the arm to trap it in any way since it's not actually meant to catch the bicep slicer submission. It just looks like I am pulling on his arm to break his grip, which is basically what I am doing. I just happen to be pulling against a painful and weak part to make it more effective.

There are several other grip breaks that I like more than this one so I don't use it too much. It is also of questionable legality as people are pointing out. But from a purely cutthroat perspective, I doubt a ref would be able to catch this. Most refs don't even pay attention enough to know if you've choked a guy out, let alone pay attention enough to tell if you are putting pressure on his bicep when you are pulling on his arm.

I thought you were talking about a proper bicep slicer i.e triangle the leg on the trapped arm.

 

[Balto]

I thought you were talking about a proper bicep slicer i.e triangle the leg on the trapped arm.

Yeah I agree that technique would probably get you DQed in a tournament.

 

[Fedorzilla]

I am not too convinced on that one. maybe I just getting confused.

he used the slicer to break the grip. so if the guy do not let go of the grip, then he gets a slicer, if he lets go then he get submitted via arm bar. but he does not want to get call for a slicer.

It is like saying you used a can opener to only open the closed guard, once it is opened then you let go of the can opener so you should not get called for it. but what happen if the guy does not want to open the closed guard = can opener.

I know, it's a bad analogy, but you can't assume that the guy is going to keep applying pressure for the tap. I mean, if he does, you can say "that's an illegal submission" (if it is). But, you can't say "I know you would have proceeded with the submission if I didn't release it just based on general discomfort"

 

[lechien]

I know, it's a bad analogy, but you can't assume that the guy is going to keep applying pressure for the tap. I mean, if he does, you can say "that's an illegal submission" (if it is). But, you can't say "I know you would have proceeded with the submission if I didn't release it just based on general discomfort"

the problem with the slicer is that it is a lot of pain and then suddenly out of no where it is a bone craking noise!

well anyway, i got caught with one with an old school brasilian blue belt.

 

[ohmalley]

i think your first instinct is right. sounds like the guy's got sand in his cooch. he's probably just pissed you outsmarted his grip. if i were you i'd throw another one on him first chance i get. =P

 

[fourfif**]

Or if the guys is injured and you attack that limb.

purposely?? I can't even imagine someone doing that. that's starting some shit right there.

 

[Fedorzilla]

the problem with the slicer is that it is a lot of pain and then suddenly out of no where it is a bone craking noise!

I don't know what you're talking about... oh wait

Horrific Bicep Slicer. You'll need your volume on or else you won't really understand the gravity... - Bloody Elbow

 

[redaxe]

I am not too convinced on that one. maybe I just getting confused.

he used the slicer to break the grip. so if the guy do not let go of the grip, then he gets a slicer, if he lets go then he get submitted via arm bar. but he does not want to get call for a slicer.

It is like saying you used a can opener to only open the closed guard, once it is opened then you let go of the can opener so you should not get called for it. but what happen if the guy does not want to open the closed guard = can opener.

Well in a competition if you want to get your opponent DQ'ed, just tap immediately when he puts the slicer/can opener/whatever illegal technique on you.

I forgot who, but a guy did this at black belt level at either Mundials or Pan-Ams recently when someone tried to use a can opener to open his guard. He won by tapping.

 

[fourfif**]

Well in a competition if you want to get your opponent DQ'ed, just tap immediately when he puts the slicer/can opener/whatever illegal technique on you.

I forgot who, but a guy did this at black belt level at either Mundials or Pan-Ams recently when someone tried to use a can opener to open his guard. He won by tapping.

they were doing nogi though.

 

[Knock Out Ned]

Biceps slicers are only allowed at Brown Belts under IBJJF rules.

Some guys like to train under such rules and some do not.

I think TS was training for a competition that allows biceps slicers anyway.

It boggles my mind how some people refuse to tap to these things. I've been caught before by them, and the pain is excruciating Especially, when you get caught with one, and you weren't expecting it. I know they are not allowed in competitions, but is the main reason they are not allowed under IBJJF rules is that they have the potential to cause permanent damage?

 

[Fedorzilla]

Well in a competition if you want to get your opponent DQ'ed, just tap immediately when he puts the slicer/can opener/whatever illegal technique on you.

I forgot who, but a guy did this at black belt level at either Mundials or Pan-Ams recently when someone tried to use a can opener to open his guard. He won by tapping.

yeah, that's part of why I'm talking about this. There are so many bullshitters out there. Buddy of mine went to the Mundials and saw all sorts of people screaming "neck crank" and getting DQs or jumping off people when they stood up in guard and claiming slams. The refs bought it and legitimate contenders got eliminated. Such bullshit.