Bicep Cutter Unsportsmanlike?

Discussion in 'Grappling Technique' started by Red Harvest, Aug 9, 2010.

  1. Red Harvest

    Red Harvest Orange Belt

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    Quick question. While rolling the other day I found myself with an armbar attempt blocked by the classic vanilla defense of "I'll just lock my hands together and hold on for dear life". The guy had a grip from hell. I could not kick his arm free if my life depended on it. Now I'm fairly strong and it just wasn't happening so I did what I've always done to break grip.......bicep cutter. The grip broke and I finished the armbar. Time to roll again right? Noooooooo. I had to listen to a ration of shit from the guy about how unsportsmanlike a bicep cutter is and believe it or not, others were agreeing with him! I have been training in BJJ for 13 years (11 years consecutively....long story) and I have never once heard anyone bitch about a bicep cutter to break grip. Keep in mind, I didn't submit him with it, it was used quickly to break his grip. I'm fairly certain I just rolled with a couple of bitches but seeing as how they had been actively competing in the past 2 years and I hadn't, I wanted some verification on this. Am I losing my mind here?
     
  2. El Beebo

    El Beebo Blue Belt

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    No gi: perfectly fine.

    In the gi: a little cheap, but nothing to freak out over.
     
  3. Calibur

    Calibur Jiu Jitsu Snob

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    At first glance I would say hell no, but if you are not higher than a brown belt and they are not higher than a brown belt, than they may be used to playing under IBJJF rules where bicep cutters are illegal. They may consider it a cheap shot since you are going for a move that they shouldnt have to prepare for, kind of like being punched from guard.

    Either way, they still sound like menstruating bitches.
     
  4. bjornvil

    bjornvil Blue Belt

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    This...
     
  5. Red Harvest

    Red Harvest Orange Belt

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    It was no gi. Belt-wise I am higher ranking but I have only been training without the gi for 2 months. Again, I'm pretty certain they're on the rag.
     
  6. ZuZitsu**

    ZuZitsu** Purple Belt

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    The bicep slice is a PAIN submisison that CAN cause damage to your arm. So if you get a hardass who doesnt like to tap, it can really hurt him. So is it worth hurting your teammate bc he is stubborn?

    Look Im not saying you were wrong or that its unsportsmanlike (personally I dont think so) but its the same thing with heel hooks, calve crushers etc. If YOU know you had it, move on.....let the roll continue. After 13 yrs Im sure you have let your ego go by now....or have you?

    If you have been training for 13yrs I would think you know the etiquette when it comes to certain submissions. Again, Im not judging you bc you didnt mention how hard you applied the submission, but it kinda sounds like you were frustrated by not getting the arm bar so you probably put the slicer on too hard and now you are looking for us to tell you that you didnt do anything wrong. .
     
  7. Calibur

    Calibur Jiu Jitsu Snob

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    The bicep slicer is like the slowest acting high damage submission. If you get injured by a bicep slicer off of the armlock defense it is because you were being a stubborn dumbass.

    I have an average ego, and I will definitely play catch and release with heel hooks, but if my opponent cant recognize a locked bicep slicer, thats his problem to deal with.
     
  8. keynote

    keynote Purple Belt

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    Locking your arms like a retard isn't a defense against the arm bar, and you did it to get the arm bar anyways. It's not like you sat there ripping on a bicep slicer until his forearm snapped off.

    Sounds fine to me.
     
  9. ZuZitsu**

    ZuZitsu** Purple Belt

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    I go for heel hooks while rolling but neverrrrr crank or turn them (and Im also careful to let go right away just in case the guy defends it the wrong way and hurts himself)

    I wrist lock people but never to the point that it really hurts....I apply it slowwww

    I calve crush (usually from a heel hook escape) but again I apply it slowly bc these are my teammates. I mean I wanna practice these things bc they are a big part of the game so Im not going to shy away from them......however, Im not going to practice them at the expense of my teammates health.

    If I lose the submission bc I applied it too slowly....oh well! My teammates are their to help me get better so I am not going to hurt them....especially over something stupid like losing position or not getting a tap out of them! If someone gets hurts while rolling (black eye, finger poke, groin shot etc) hey shit happens its a contact sport....but I dont want my arrogance to be the cause of it!
     
  10. ZuZitsu**

    ZuZitsu** Purple Belt

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    Cool...I disagree thats all. I dont mind hurting someone in a tourney bc of their ego (Im there to compete and my goal is a submission) but these are my teammates....guys that help ME prepare for tournies! Im not hurting them so I can get a tap out of them.
     
  11. Red Harvest

    Red Harvest Orange Belt

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    I understand where you're coming from. I also have no ego when it comes to rolling. I have nothing to prove. The bicep cutter was, again, strictly to break grip. I could have slapped it on harder but he knew it was coming when I fished my arm through and broke grip before I could even really apply enough pressure to have caused any real pain. I feel it's important to roll in tournament situations with your training partners. Maybe not at 100% but definitely put them in situations that they could face and a bicep cutter is very real. Obviously I'm not going to apply a submission all of the way in training but hopefully you get my point.

    I'm glad to know that the general consensus is that they're all bitches. I thought maybe I was missing something.
     
  12. An end for

    An end for Purple Belt

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    If it's the one I'm thinking about, even white belts can do it. It's not cheap or unsportsmanlike.
     
  13. SuperSuperRambo

    SuperSuperRambo Senior Moderator Senior Moderator

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    I wouldn't have a problem with it.

    Moreover, there are easier ways to break that grip than a bicep cutter, and more effective ways than kicking at the legs. I only switch off to the bicep cutter (I call it an arm scissors in that situation) if he has a tighter grip than hand to hand.
     
  14. KJGould

    KJGould Silver Belt

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    Don't see the problem with it. There are other ways to break grips too.
     
  15. Red Harvest

    Red Harvest Orange Belt

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    Bicep Cutter is easiest for me. It's my preferred grip breaking technique. Thanks for the input folks.
     
  16. akharon

    akharon Blue Belt

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    Please clarify, is it a pain submission or does it cause damage? Under that definition, an armbar is a pain submission (at least, AFAIK having your arm bent backwards hurts like hell), and it certainly can cause damage.
     
  17. Andrew Green

    Andrew Green White Belt

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    Enough pressure and it will definitely cause damage. There is a video floating around of a guy having his forearm snapped from one in competition.
     
  18. Team Sleep

    Team Sleep Black Belt

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    Don't do anything that will cause injury to your teammates. Obviously they are some bitchmade little girls, but whatever. We sink heel hooks and finish submissions on each other in our school, but we're always really aware of our body and our partners body.

    Hell yea we do the pain submissions. Even better them than something that can actually injure you, which is a serious problem if people are getting really hurt in class. We like to be nasty with the cranks and we definitely try to put each other out with chokes though. As a rule of thumb, I will only crank something to the point that I know the next step is damage, or if they are being stubborn. I will squeeze a choke til your eyes pop out of your head though :icon_twis

    You've been grappling a lot longer than I have, but not much has changed except there are more little bitches as BJJ has gotten more popular. They'll be selected for deletion.
     
  19. Red Harvest

    Red Harvest Orange Belt

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    To clarify a question asked ^^.

    A bicep cutter can be very dangerous and can cause permanent damage if left applied at full force. I would never apply it in such a manor unless I was in active competition.
     
  20. akharon

    akharon Blue Belt

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    That said, shouldn't purples and below (and I'm speaking as a blue belt here) be prepared for everything? It's not like a bicep slicer has the same potential for lightning fast long term injury like a heel hook. It's just another way to break a grip and complete an armbar. At my school we do them as much as anything else. Of course, we're more of a self-defense oriented school that happens to compete every now and then, so the notion of "don't do this until a certain level" doesn't apply unless you're talking heel hooks, crucifix as a submission, and cranking necks.
     

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