Bewar of EGO tournaments

reaping the knee happens anytime you put pressure against the outside of the knee forcing the knee inward toward the centerline. in the straight footlock in the video, the guy would have been fine if he'd gone for the lock by putting the leg under him, against the mat. that way the pressure would have been on the inside of the knee pushing out. the knee works fine this way.

the mechanism of injury for a heelhook is this exact thing - you turn the foot at the heel to force the knee from outside to inside, and by trapping it with your legs it doesn't allow the joint to move where it needs to and so causes ligament damage.

the reason for the rule against reaping is NOT stupid. the knee often goes without any warning pain. often by the time it hurts, it's already destroyed - tapping is pointless. therefore, it's left to more experienced players (eg, advanced no gi) who are assumed to have the experience to recognize and accept the risks to be safe. yet still we see plenty of injuries from heelhooks in advanced divisions.

the reason the OP is bent is because reaping is never allowed in gi divisions, even at blackbelt level (see galvao tooling some jjj guy for this for reference) and i've never seen it allowed anywhere other than advanced nogi. reaping can occur in a buncha non-footlock scenarios as well, particularly sweeping from open guard, so refs need to be sharp to prevent injuries and DQs at lower experience levels. OP's complaint is totally legit, IMO.
 
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so by your own admission you did not attend the rules meeting. as an experienced grappler, I would think you'd know that you need to go to those. too bad you couldn't enjoy the most efficiently run tournament in the midwest.
 
Reaping the knee is pretty bad. Hope your knee isn't wrecked, dude.
 
I kind of see it, but I must be kind of dense, I'd like to see a video with a better explanation.

Personally, I think the rule is stupid.

You've never been heel hooked, have you?

Im terrified of Advanced divisions for that reason. Although i think im gonna go for it anyway.
 
I think people have a tendency to freak out way too much when it comes to reaping the knee. It's really not that dangerous when done carefully - sambo guys do it all the time, and anybody who trains at a decent no-gi school is used to it as well. I can understand being upset about it happening at a tournament where it is against the rules (though whether or not that was the case at this particular tournament seems to be questionable), as that's a situation where you're competing hard against somebody you probably don't know and who probably isn't as concerned for your safety as a training partner would be.

What I don't get, however, are the people who lose their minds whenever they get the slightest bit of knee reaping done to them in class. I wouldn't dream of calling somebody an asshole for reaping my knee in class while rolling no-gi, and even in the gi I would simply calmly call his attention to the illegality of the move in the vast majority of gi tournaments. But some of you act like it's the end of the world if your knee gets reaped, and I can assure you it isn't. I've done it and had it done to me for years, and I have never suffered nor inflicted a knee injury from reaping alone.

Now there is a point where reaping can essentially turn into a no-hands heel hook, and that is dangerous, but you really have to go out of your way to inflict that much pressure (past a 90 degree bend in the knee that's being reaped). The sort of reaping that occurs in an open guard situation against a standing opponent is extremely unlikely to hurt anyone.
 
If you reap my knee at training. I will yell at you and scowl you like a naughty boy.

then i will enlish the Legion on you!
 
so by your own admission you did not attend the rules meeting. as an experienced grappler, I would think you'd know that you need to go to those. too bad you couldn't enjoy the most efficiently run tournament in the midwest.

No I didn't attend the rules meeting and as an experienced grappler I have found that nothing is ever said at those rule meetings that is not covered in the rules found on the website, except in this case. The website said blue belts could only do straight ankle locks and outside toe holds. Twisting leg locks were illegal for all divisions which was contradicted by allowing reaping of the knee which incidentally was not mentioned as being allowed on the website.

My beef is not with knowledge or lack of knowledge about reaping of the knee being legal. I just think it is a horrible idea for this tournament or any tournament to allow reaping of the knee in a gi division. First of all it is a position that is not allowed in any other gi division in any tournament I have ever heard about. Second reaping of the knee is essentially a twisting leg lock so allowing it creates a contradiction in rules IMO.

I think it is a bad idea not only because it is a dangerous position, but also because it is a position you will never practice if you are a gi competitor. By allowing it you introducing a dangerous position that a lot of competitors will have no experience with. I train under a world champion and have been in every type of funky guard and position you can imagine, but never in a knee reap position because it is both illegal and dangerous.

I don't have a problem with people saying it is my fault for getting hurt because I didn't attend the rules meeting and didn't tap once the position was established. That is fair I guess. I want to yes vent some, but also to inform people who may attend an EGO event in the future to be prepared since they will not know that reaping of the knee is legal until they are already at the venue.

Also I have to say that just because everyone knows a particular technique is allowed does not make it a good idea. Heck NAGA is very clear that all submissions are legal for all adult no gi divisions. Personally I think it is retarded to allow twisting leg locks and neck cranks etc. in novice and beginner divisions. Mainly because those positions can result in more serious injuries and will be the exact positions that beginners will have the least amount of experience with.
 
You've never been heel hooked, have you?

Im terrified of Advanced divisions for that reason. Although i think im gonna go for it anyway.

Actually I have, but I tapped on it when I felt his arm touch my heel. Nice try this time, buddy.

I think reaping the knee rule is stupid in comps that allow leglocks, if it's illegal, they shouldn't allow leglocks in the first place.
 
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James made it clear that putting the outside foot over the hip to stabilize the footlock was legal but using it to reap the knee was not. You can certainly put the foot over the hip without exerting any lateral force. My understanding from the rules meeting was that the refs would determine whether the position was being used to stabilize the footlock or to reap.
The IBJJF is very strict about this rule with some benefit and some detriment. I have seen competitors use it to draw a DQ when there was clearly no pressure being put on the knee. There have even been some competitors that put the attackers foot over their hip to draw the DQ. The ref clearly knew that the attacker did not intend or want to be in that position but they have to follow the rule.
In the end the difference comes down to whether or not the ref has any power to determine if lateral force is being exerted. It sounds like you might have been on the bad side of it, but I'm not sure that one rule being put in the refs lap is worth writing off the whole tournament.
 
On a related note, does anyone else think that the Lucas Leite half-guard puts as much or more lateral pressure on the knee? What about the lockdown?

I'm still not sure how I feel about the IBJJF rule. The fighters certainly need to be protected. It is a combat sport though.
 
What I don't get, however, are the people who lose their minds whenever they get the slightest bit of knee reaping done to them in class.

There's one dude at my gym who cranks knee bars fast while training, and I've seen him injure others more than once. Before training with him I always say "I walked / rode my bike here today, and I want to walk / cycle home. If you set up a leg lock DO NOT crank it. I will immediately tap".

I tap really early when he starts to set it up, but I'm able to walk or ride my bike home.
 
There's one dude at my gym who cranks knee bars fast while training, and I've seen him injure others more than once. Before training with him I always say "I walked / rode my bike here today, and I want to walk / cycle home. If you set up a leg lock DO NOT crank it. I will immediately tap".

I tap really early when he starts to set it up, but I'm able to walk or ride my bike home.

Well that's a totally different situation than what I'm talking about. First of all there's no reaping in any knee bar that I'm aware of (though you can certainly set one up from a reaped position), and second that guy's just an asshole who would be dangerous no matter what submission he does. I wouldn't want him cranking a kimura on me either.
 
Warning a long rant to follow.

Attended my first Extreme Grappling Open tournament today in Nashville. I wanted to get some matches in before the Chicago Open and play around with my game a little bit. In the finals of my masters division I pulled open guard with no grips so I could get some practice in playing from a bad guard pull. The guy couldn't pass my guard so he drops back for an ankle lock.

No biggie I get a lapel and come to standing and the guy starts to reap my knee. Mind you not just slightly crossing the hip, but all the way across to my other hip. Of course I say to the ref "hey this dude is reaping my knee" In the course of my conversation with the ref he informs me that the tournament allows reaping of the knee. After arguing with him a bit and express how utterly retarded this is and how I have never heard of a tournament that allows reaping of knee in a gi event the match resumes. My opponent promptly grabs my ankle and rolls to the inside against my knee effectively heel hooking me.

My knee pops and I scream out in pain, the ref stops the match and asks if I can continue. I know my knee is jacked and kinda confused that he is giving me the option to continue since I screamed out in pain, but I am pissed and still able to move the knee some. So I continue and submit the guy.

I end up not being able to compete in my adult division and I am know at home with a bag of ice on a knee I am hoping is not too jacked up.

For the life of me I cannot understand why a tournament would allow reaping of the knee especially in a blue belt division. Needless to say this will be the last EGO tournament I ever attend and would advise anyone else against attending their events also. Why some jank small regional tournament feels the need to alter common and established rules for the gi is beyond me. Also if you are going to alter one why the hell would it be to allow reaping of the knee.

man... I was there too! I think I saw you (if you had a bag of ice wrapped around your knee with your belt???) and my coach said the EXACT SAME THING! They were also allowing for people to grab people's rash guards / tee shirts under their gi.

The tournament moved pretty fast, but the facility sucked and there was almost no information given to the athletes. I won my division, but overall, was a pretty weird experience.

Things I liked:

- speed
- practice mat area offered
- price
- experience

what I didn't:
- lack of control by refs
- seemed like people were "lost"
- kinda dirty facility
- no showers
- medals kinda suck


I think I would compete there again, but only if it's local, which this one was... kinda (about 2 hrs away). definitely wouldn't travel long distance and wouldn't pick this one over another tourney if you have to chose.
 
Warning a long rant to follow.

Attended my first Extreme Grappling Open tournament today in Nashville. I wanted to get some matches in before the Chicago Open and play around with my game a little bit. In the finals of my masters division I pulled open guard with no grips so I could get some practice in playing from a bad guard pull. The guy couldn't pass my guard so he drops back for an ankle lock.

No biggie I get a lapel and come to standing and the guy starts to reap my knee. Mind you not just slightly crossing the hip, but all the way across to my other hip. Of course I say to the ref "hey this dude is reaping my knee" In the course of my conversation with the ref he informs me that the tournament allows reaping of the knee. After arguing with him a bit and express how utterly retarded this is and how I have never heard of a tournament that allows reaping of knee in a gi event the match resumes. My opponent promptly grabs my ankle and rolls to the inside against my knee effectively heel hooking me.

My knee pops and I scream out in pain, the ref stops the match and asks if I can continue. I know my knee is jacked and kinda confused that he is giving me the option to continue since I screamed out in pain, but I am pissed and still able to move the knee some. So I continue and submit the guy.

I end up not being able to compete in my adult division and I am know at home with a bag of ice on a knee I am hoping is not too jacked up.

For the life of me I cannot understand why a tournament would allow reaping of the knee especially in a blue belt division. Needless to say this will be the last EGO tournament I ever attend and would advise anyone else against attending their events also. Why some jank small regional tournament feels the need to alter common and established rules for the gi is beyond me. Also if you are going to alter one why the hell would it be to allow reaping of the knee.

i saw this thread on the UG
 
I love their tournaments. I believe the positives far outweigh the negatives. But, is there room for improvement? absolutely.

Extreme Grappling Open (EGO)

What they do well:
  • Price - I'm so happy that they haven't joined the $100+ to compete club
  • Speed - I really like how everything is computerized ahead of time. The last NAGA went until well after midnight.
  • Weigh-Ins - Option to weigh in the day before
  • Customer Service - I spoke with AJ a few times on the phone before the event because I had some questions and she always answered them and was very friendly
  • Environment - Very strong feeling of family at their tournaments. Much less pressure than I normally feel going into one

What they can improve on:
  • Scoring (visibility) - When I last went, they did not have visible scoreboards so that competitors could see the score.
  • Showers - I will admit they do not have these at the ones I've been to. But then again, none of the tournaments I've ever been to have had showers.
  • Medals - I would like to see much better medals being offered. They don't have to give us swords or anything, but I've noticed that NAGA and a few other tournaments have been offering better medals than in the past. You don't want to train really hard and have to show people a cheap (looking) medal
 
I love their tournaments. I believe the positives far outweigh the negatives. But, is there room for improvement? absolutely.

Extreme Grappling Open (EGO)

What they do well:
  • Price - I'm so happy that they haven't joined the $100+ to compete club
  • Speed - I really like how everything is computerized ahead of time. The last NAGA went until well after midnight.
  • Weigh-Ins - Option to weigh in the day before
    [*]Customer Service - I spoke with AJ a few times on the phone before the event because I had some questions and she always answered them and was very friendly
  • Environment - Very strong feeling of family at their tournaments. Much less pressure than I normally feel going into one

What they can improve on:
  • Scoring (visibility) - When I last went, they did not have visible scoreboards so that competitors could see the score.
  • Showers - I will admit they do not have these at the ones I've been to. But then again, none of the tournaments I've ever been to have had showers.
  • Medals - I would like to see much better medals being offered. They don't have to give us swords or anything, but I've noticed that NAGA and a few other tournaments have been offering better medals than in the past. You don't want to train really hard and have to show people a cheap (looking) medal

definitely agree with u here!
 
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