Better to hit harder or smarter?

[Ironpants]

Just wondering if the most successful fighters who are strikers (in terms of K.O.s, damage, knockdown power, ect) are mostly getting such good results because of intelligent, strategically landed punches as opposed to being just hard punchers. I've seen smaller guys knock down heavier opponents in only a handful of well placed hits so it brings up the notion of is weather strength factors behind a punch (functional strength, body mass, leverage, ect) are not as important as technique, timing, hit location and sneaking past guard, ect. I've heard stories that successful boxers and some street guys stay clear the hell away from strength training, like it really makes no difference and probably kills speed and reflexes, so I' wondering if the MMA guys think the same way. How much does bodily strength/punching power (like PSI of punches if your technical about it) carry over?

 

[Truebeliever]

Of course the timing and placement of a punch are very important but strength maters. I can tell you from personal experience that i hit a lot harder when i've been lifting weights consistently. Don't believe me? Look at the three heaviest hitters in mma. Overeem, Carwin, and JDS. I rest my case.

 

[Prokofievian]

Just a matter of terminology with your post:

All strength is functional. It performs a function. Whether that is doing 40 pullups, or deadlifting 600. You will get cock-eyed looks from anyone who knows strength training if you say "functional strength."

And as for weights and strength training making you slow: no. It's not as simple as that. Yuri Verkhoshansky is on the record as saying that "excessive" maximal strength training has been known to inhibit speed development in boxers. There are two things at play there: 1.) the type of strength training and 2.) the amount of that specific type of strength training.

As for the actual technique, I'm not a boxer, I'm only on this forum because I really want to start boxing, so I'll refrain from saying anything concrete about it. I will, however, refer you to Jack Dempsey:

Stickgrappler's Martial Arts Archives - Championship Fighting whole book page

Finally, check out rossboxing.com if you're still not convinced, or are looking for ways to develop speed and power in your training.

 

[KidKrav]

Strength and power are two different things in the context of striking. Pressing/pulling/squatting weight translates better to grappling than striking...

 

[Fire of Youth]

Mike Tyson always said that his KOs came from speed and accuracy. Also take into ac**** that a smart fighter is also going to land more strikes cleanly thus increasing the probability that one of those strikes will end in a KO.

 

[beaglepuss]

Of course the timing and placement of a punch are very important but strength maters. I can tell you from personal experience that i hit a lot harder when i've been lifting weights consistently. Don't believe me? Look at the three heaviest hitters in mma. Overeem, Carwin, and JDS. I rest my case.

Tommy Hearns says STFU.

 

[Prokofievian]

Strength and power are two different things in the context of striking. Pressing/pulling/squatting weight translates better to grappling than striking...

Read this:

http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/IGH/IGH0703/IGH0703d.pdf

In 1984, L.P. Getke and I.P. Digtyraev examined
the

 

[KidKrav]

^It looks like an interesting read and I'm not going to say that lifting weights has no positive affects. The point is that an Olympic or power lifting routine is not the only way to develop powerful striking. You referred people to rossboxing.com earlier in the thread, and articles written there go into detail about how a person can train with or without weights and still develop power as it applies to striking. There are many champions who have achieved great things in combat sports without following the type of lifting routines that get promoted as the only viable form of training in the S&C forum..

If we're discussing whether or not strength or technique plays a greater role in determining the outcome of a fight, which is what I thought this thread was about, you can tally my vote under technique.

 

[InternetHero]

Mike Tyson always said that his KOs came from speed and accuracy. Also take into ac**** that a smart fighter is also going to land more strikes cleanly thus increasing the probability that one of those strikes will end in a KO.

All the while avoiding an aged George Foreman like he owed him money.

Not that both are not important but its no clear choice.

 

[Prokofievian]

^It looks like an interesting read and I'm not going to say that lifting weights has no positive affects. The point is that an Olympic or power lifting routine is not the only way to develop powerful striking. You referred people to rossboxing.com earlier in the thread, and articles written there go into detail about how a person can train with or without weights and still develop power as it applies to striking. There are many champions who have achieved great things in combat sports without following the type of lifting routines that get promoted as the only viable form of training in the S&C forum..

If we're discussing whether or not strength or technique plays a greater role in determining the outcome of a fight, which is what I thought this thread was about, you can tally my vote under technique.

I did refer people to rossboxing in this thread. Ross Enamait also deadlifts 600. Certainly, there are many ways to skin a cat in developing maximal and explosive strength, but I have to object with this "as it applies to striking."

If you look at a person, and you don't know what sport they do, how do you tell if they're strong or not? You would measure things like rate of force development, maximal exerted force etc. You wouldn't say "what is his striking strength"? That concept has very little meaning.

These are the ways we categorize strength: Maximal, explosive, speed, and endurance. As any athlete, you need to identify which aspects of strength you are lacking in, and address these.

Different training methods are just different tools, to address different needs. Obviously, many striking athletes have succeeded despite not using weights. But if you want to increase maximal strength, and explosive strength, the easiest, most efficient way of doing so is with weights and olympic/compound movements. There isn't really any reason to specifically avoid those methods if you need to address maximal and explosive total body strength, unless you're too poor to afford access to the appropriate facilities.

This does not, in any way, mean that technique is not important, or in fact, not more important. It is. Just because you're strong doesn't mean that you can punch.

However, the idea that weights produce strength that is not as "useful" for striking is a spurious one.

 

[KidKrav]

I don't think we're as far apart in opinion as it may seem. I never suggested that weight lifting doesn't have positive affects but I do think that there is an unproductive infatuation with the subject on this site. There's a legion of people here that think the weight routine of a power lifter is what all fighters should be following, but everyone reputable I've seen quoted on the topic says the exact opposite...


As for Ross Enemait, I did a little digging and it looks like his DL exceeds 500 pounds, but I don't see that he ever hit 600. I'm not saying it isn't true, but perhaps you confused the figures?

The interesting thing about Enemait's DL is that he pulled 500 pounds when challenged to on an online message board without having previously trained the lift...

The following is a quote by Enemait from the thread on his message board where the challenge was issued:

Quote:
Or possibly a few decades of physical training? Seriously, if he had dedicated himself to strength during that period, he'd be lifting much, much more.


You are correct, but I would never focus solely on this kind of strength. I don't train powerlifters. I train professional fighters. Weight room numbers don't mean anything on fight night. You don't win points with the judges. Yes, strength IS important, but strength is a complex term itself (ex. rate of force development is much different from max strength). Both are important of course, but there are many ways to accomplish/develop the strength needs of a fighter.

As I listed in a previous thread:

Quote:
Zatsiorsky - Rate of force development, rather than absolute force itself, is the crucial factor in successful athletic performance

Verkhoshansky - An extraordinary development of absolute strength has a negative influence on speed.

Siff - Verkoshansky and colleagues has established that excessive maximum strength training can impair speed-strength and technical skill in boxers.

Siff - Filinov has established that excessively heavy strength loads diminish the force and speed of boxer’s punches

Siff - Considerable research has established that voluminous strength loading is detrimental to the technique of the weightlifting movements and punching speed in boxing


If you asked Sugar Ray Robinson what he was deadlifting as the best boxer to ever live, and he would have looked at you like you were crazy. The same holds true for many great fighters today. Go ask Manny Pacquiao what he deadlifts and he won't know what you are talking about.

This is one problem with the Internet. Suppose a coach comes along and suggests that one exercise is the best thing in the world. Everyone then assumes they need to be using the exercise. Unfortunately, there is no such thing. Different athletes have different needs.

There are many tremendous movements, but also many unique athletes who come to the gym with unique needs. What works for John may not work for Joe (and may not make sense for him either). This is where good coaching comes into play. People are people, not robots. You analyze the individual and then create a plan that is specific to his needs.

I may train 10 fighters and each fighter will have a completely different plan. Just for an example, I am working with two professional fighters who are fighting in November. These guys have entirely different plans. Everything is different.

The deadlift is a fine movement, but certainly not the end all to training. There is so much more to becoming a complete athlete. Athleticism goes far beyond the weight room. If this weren't true, powerlifters would dominate every sport. Remember, powerlifting IS a sport, with specific needs. You can't force a powerlifting routine on to a fighter. It is like forcing a square into a circle.

Just a few random thoughts before we run this morning...

Ross

Dr. Boots - Get your money ready :lol:

 

[Prokofievian]

That challenge is a pretty old one. Dr Boots bet Ross that he couldn't pull 405. Ross ended up pulling 495 on video, which was teh lulz. Soon thereafter he pulled 585 on his trap bar. I do know that he ended up pulling 585 on a straight bar, and then dedicated himself for a year to pulling 600. I haven't seen confirmation of it, but knowing ross, I find it hard to believe that he fell short.

As for the people on this site that believe that you should be powerlifting as a fighter, that's obviously not a good idea, and you shouldn't be listening to those people. What most people from the old S&P would tell you is that when you first start strength training, your first concern should be building a good strength base, which might look like "training like a power-lifter." Doing heavy squats, deadlifts, and compound movements when you're a weakling will only make you stronger, bigger, faster, and more explosive.

It makes little sense to address "specific" weaknesses like speed and explosive strength or "functional striking strength" when you're weak as a kitten. Does a weak person have strengths?

 

[ssullivan80]

Tommy Hearns says STFU.

LMAO!!!! :icon_chee

As for TS ?, "better to hit harder or smarter", easy answer...... Smarter! Even a heavy handed hard punching fighter (at the elite level) has to be able to be smart about when to throw his shots. Hitting smart, IMO, means knowing when and how to put hands on your opponent. Hitting hard is only as good as your ability to actually land the shot, which requires even a hard puncher to know how to be "smart" with his power. I.E: from example below, George Foreman..... didn't throw volume, but made the shots he threw count! He hit hard, absolutely, but what is important is that he was smart about knowing when to throw his shots and how to get leather to face! On the opposite end of that spectrum, JM Marquez, may not throw 1 punch KO's, but he will hit you with 6 shots clean while backing up and his connect % is ridiculous for a guy who throws as many shots as he does! Hence, he has a very high KO ratio of some very good fighters.....

Want to see a perfect example of a guy who hits hard vs. a guy who hits smart........ Watch Hopkins dismantle Pascals ass in their recent rematch.

 

[bowlie]

weights can make you slower if you do the wrong kind. things that promote sarcogenic hypertrophy or slow twitch dominance have been shown to have no speed benifit and make you bigger/heavier. so therefore slower. but lifting properly just speeds you up. why dont you be smart and strong

 

[panamaican]

To chime in on the strength training aspect of this discussion, you don't have to do squats, bench press and deadlifts to train explosive strength for striking. But it's still the most efficient way to do so.

A serious routine of bodyweight training will get you stronger. But if you broke down most bodyweight routines, you'd come to see that basic compound lifts build strength in the exact same areas (often in a very similar way). And it's easier to increase resistance with free weights or machines than it is with just your bodyweight. Of course, maintaining flexibility and sport specific movements is more important for long term success but that's dependent on your training routine, not whether or not you're weightlifting.

Just because the focus of your lifting isn't Olympic records doesn't invalidate the value of the lifts themselves. And while everyone is somewhat different, basic human physiology when it comes to gaining strength and speed is pretty consistent.

 

[MGMT***]

Smarter,land a punch clean with alot of leverage