Better base for MMA - Judo or BJJ?

[BJJ_Rage]

There are no mma gyms 'based on sambo and not Judo'.
The majority of the practitioners do or have done both.

Red devil is MMA based Judo and Sambo, as is the norm in Russia

And Fedors dream was to be an Olympic Judoka.

If you do sambo, your not doing just judo are you? If the mayrority is Russians do sambo and judo, those guys aren’t just judo guys, are they?

 

[Seefoo]

You can go to Russia and make a list.
Since Judo is one of the most popular bases there shouldnt be too hard.

Also while your there why not try out your theory that BJJ leg attacks are enough to takedown Greco -Roman wrestlers. Would be fun for you I'm sure.

You mis-spelled Sambo. Sambo isn't Judo and Hayastan isn't Judo either. Try to enter a Judo competition using Sambo or Hayastan. You'll get DQ'd in seconds.

 

[TheMaster]

Whatever, keep playing with semantics and consoling yourselves however you need to.

Ground specialist arts like BJJ will always be helpful support arts to deepen the ground games of a primary base that prioritizes standing grappling and top control (Wrestling/Judo/Sambo).

The styles can enrich each other.

Also remember always

The GOAT was Judoka!

 

[FightGuyOpenMind]

Kano and the founders of any system will try to show the essence of the art in its purest form.
Dont forget that the knowledge we have today and take for granted took sometimes generations to be distilled down.
To understand Kanos thought and subsequent decisions we have to know what was his intent when he formed Judo to begin with, not try to gaze back from our current vantage point and try to imagine what we think must have been his reasoning.

He literally explained himself in that excerpt I shared. He made a breakthrough in how to throw his opponent. The entire context can be found, but I did not post it. I don't think there is that much mysticism or secret meaning to what was said. It appears clear. He couldn't get the throw, learned to "break the posture" and then he could throw.

"Kuzushi" or off-balancing is a staple of any formal Judo school you attend. It is not a secret.

Some things are not that deep. lol

 

[CFGroup]

If you wish to speak for another man, so be it.

I said traditionally. Judo definitely encompasses athleticism, and strength now. Traditionally, meaning it would be a question of was this the intent originally? I provided a quote straight from Kano Jigoro himself about "breaking the posture" which is off balancing or "kuzushi".

I wrestled myself in high school, strength and conditioning is a major major part of the game. If you say otherwise, then I would question which of us is ignorant.

Wrestlers bodies scream strength and athleticism(conditioning) as a whole.
Again, Kano Jigoro was not an imposing man.

Holy crap do not quote Kano Sensei in a Sherdog shit show!

I tried that and it went so far over the head of the thread they kept on saying strength is the core of JuJitsu/Judo.....

7 pages of this cock fight and counting....

 

[TheMaster]

He literally explained himself in that excerpt I shared. He made a breakthrough in how to throw his opponent. The entire context can be found, but I did not post it. I don't think there is that much mysticism or secret meaning to what was said. It appears clear. He couldn't get the throw, learned to "break the posture" and then he could throw.

"Kuzushi" or off-balancing is a staple of any formal Judo school you attend. It is not a secret.

Some things are not that deep. lol

I was not referring just to the passage but to speculations about what may have been his reasons for approving or not additions or changes to Judo.

Holy crap do not quote Kano Sensei in a Sherdog shit show!

I tried that and it went so far over the head of the thread they kept on saying strength is the core of JuJitsu/Judo.....

7 pages of this cock fight and counting....

Agreed, I'm done arguing this.

Control of ones ego is Judo also.

What does bug me is the widespread lack of respect shown to Kano in BJJ it seems. The 'Helio Gracie invented a new art' narrative was so strong, Renzo even tried to publish a denial of BJJ's Judo origins in his book.

What we can be clear of is modern MMA would not exist if not for Kano.
No need to guess about some pictures on a Greek vase of 'pankration' and what it may have been.
Modern Japanese, Brazilian, American and Russian MMA can all in large part directly be traced to this one man and that is worthy of acknowledgement and great respect.

 

[FightGuyOpenMind]

I was not referring just to the passage but to speculations about what may have been his reasons for approving or not additions or changes to Judo.

My response came from your reply to my comment. If I misinterpreted it, it is because of the context in which it was presented (as a reply to my comment). If there was greater meaning to your post, I may have missed it.

Speculations shouldn't be speculations if you can trace lineage. I know a Judoka who is an international referee. He has been teaching Judo for 40 years, been a student for longer. His instructor brought Judo from overseas.

Judo in his day was very strict, and he was instructed by a Japanese Judoka who had moved to the United States. The local Judo scene used to be very vibrant decades ago, with strict adherence to tradition. However, things become diluted, because I believe there is a break in the chain. Not as many Judokas, and also too much misinformation going around.

Therefore the information that does get passed down is muddied I believe. However, understanding the founder's intent in theory, shouldn't be hard to do. This in theory, however, we lose it in application. Also, we have to take into consideration that Kano Jigoro died years before Judo was entered into the Olympics. Most sports evolve, or change with time. My take.

 

[Seefoo]

Agreed, I'm done arguing this.

Control of ones ego is Judo also.

What does bug me is the widespread lack of respect shown to Kano in BJJ it seems. The 'Helio Gracie invented a new art' narrative was so strong, Renzo even tried to publish a denial of BJJ's Judo origins in his book.

Where are you getting this nonsense from? There's plenty of BJJ gyms that hang Kano's picture alongside Helio's.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

I was not referring just to the passage but to speculations about what may have been his reasons for approving or not additions or changes to Judo.



Agreed, I'm done arguing this.

Control of ones ego is Judo also.

What does bug me is the widespread lack of respect shown to Kano in BJJ it seems. The 'Helio Gracie invented a new art' narrative was so strong, Renzo even tried to publish a denial of BJJ's Judo origins in his book.

What we can be clear of is modern MMA would not exist if not for Kano.
No need to guess about some pictures on a Greek vase of 'pankration' and what it may have been.
Modern Japanese, American and Russian MMA can all in large part directly be traced to this one man and that is worthy of acknowledgement and great respect.

lol, anyone with more than a white belt knows where bjj comes from, and knows Rorion is full of shit.

Helio did not invent knew techinques, he put together a fighting system, period. GJJ is just not grappling, is an approach to fighting, which prove to be quite useful if you didnt notice by now...

And Fedor was the goat, can beater goat.

 

[AnotherOldGuy]

lol, anyone with more than a white belt knows where bjj comes from, and knows Rorion is full of shit.

Helio did not invent knew techinques, he put together a fighting system, period. GJJ is just not grappling, is an approach to fighting, which prove to be quite useful if you didnt notice by now...

And Fedor was the goat, can beater goat.

As far as that goes, Kano invented very few new techniques, he (by his own account) mainly adapted techniques already in Japanese ju-jitsu and western wrestling. His main contribution was an approach to martial arts - ie ignoring 'too deadly to practice full out' techniques and concentrating on ones which could be applied and practiced in full out randori (sparring). Kano was a university professor (ie not a dojo or club 'professor'), and he was as interested in how things were taught as what was actually taught. Perhaps that's also why his ego didn't seem to get involved in claiming judo accomplishments - his main identity was being an educator rather than the founder of a martial art.

In terms of Fedor, he's one of the four MMA Goats (Fedor, Jones, Anderson and GSP). Where in that list depends on the individual. He beat cans, but also beat the top fighters of his prime. On a side note, in most sports 'can' means someone who isn't better than most fans ... ie a can is someone a fan can watch and realistically say 'I can play better than that". It makes me wonder how many people who call some of the guys Fedor beat 'cans' could really beat said 'cans'. For my part, I don't think I could beat even guys like Choi Hong-man and Zuluzhino, so I can't call them cans with a straight face.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

As far as that goes, Kano invented very few new techniques, he (by his own account) mainly adapted techniques already in Japanese ju-jitsu and western wrestling. His main contribution was an approach to martial arts - ie ignoring 'too deadly to practice full out' techniques and concentrating on ones which could be applied and practiced in full out randori (sparring). Kano was a university professor (ie not a dojo or club 'professor'), and he was as interested in how things were taught as what was actually taught. Perhaps that's also why his ego didn't seem to get involved in claiming judo accomplishments - his main identity was being an educator rather than the founder of a martial art.

In terms of Fedor, he's one of the four MMA Goats (Fedor, Jones, Anderson and GSP). Where in that list depends on the individual. He beat cans, but also beat the top fighters of his prime. On a side note, in most sports 'can' means someone who isn't better than most fans ... ie a can is someone a fan can watch and realistically say 'I can play better than that". It makes me wonder how many people who call some of the guys Fedor beat 'cans' could really beat said 'cans'. For my part, I don't think I could beat even guys like Choi Hong-man and Zuluzhino, so I can't call them cans with a straight face.

Cans means someone that’s not very good, don’t read to much into words, he fought a shit lot of cans. He did beat nog and Mirko, thing is, Mirko came to the ufc on his prime, and got the shit beat out of him... I have no doubt he was the best hw At his prime, thing is the hw was horrible, and it still is.

 

[AnotherOldGuy]

Cans means someone that’s not very good, don’t read to much into words, he fought a shit lot of cans. He did beat nog and Mirko, thing is, Mirko came to the ufc on his prime, and got the shit beat out of him... I have no doubt he was the best hw At his prime, thing is the hw was horrible, and it still is.

Maybe that's just a local use in Canada (at least when I grew up). Everyone played hockey from age 6 to 16 (and often longer), so a 'can' was someone in the NHL who people figured weren't any better than they were (might have been unrealistic - a guy getting paid 500K a year to play hockey who looked bad against top NHL players might have looked a lot better playing in a business league, but that's the usage I'm used to).

I think HW's get a pretty bad rap (perhaps because that's my category). There's a reason everyone cuts weight in every combat sport to avoid HW's; weight divisions aren't there to protect big guys from smaller, faster guys. In absolute terms, HW's are the best fighters - if MMA was like just about every non-combat sport (ie there are no size divisions in soccer, hockey, basketball, football, track, tennis and so on) then most of the top fighters would be HW's.

More than that, different techniques are effective (ie are good techniques) at HW than at say LW, because weight goes up as a cube (ie volume) while strength only goes up as a square (cross section of muscle). What would be a bad technique for a LW is often a very effective technique for a HW, and vice-versa. This is true in grappling (especially throws and takedowns as judoka and wrestlers will tell you) and striking (where the ability to hit hard goes up much faster than the ability to take a hit, because head size increases slower than muscle mass as you go up the scale).

For example, a lot of Karelin's greco techniques would have been considered sloppy as LW (same with Teddy Riner in judo), but because they had to move 250-300 pound opponents the techniques were actually more efficient for that strength/weight ratio than those used by lighter wrestlers/judoka dealing with a much higher strength/weight ratio (ie tigers don't fight like house cats).

If HW's were as bad as people think, not only would people not be going through the pain of cutting 20 pounds to avoid them (even MW's walk around over 205), smaller fighters would be drinking water to get over 205 to get the easy HW title and all the money that comes with it. But the actual fighters (as opposed to fans) know very well how hard is to beat the HW's, which is why they go to great lengths to avoid fighting those supposedly horrible fighters.

In any case, I don't think there's anyone in MMA at any weight in the UFC or Pride who would have beaten Fedor in his prime (2002-2008, he got noticeably slower after that). Could modern fighters put in a time machine beat him? Probably, techniques and nutrition and training methods improve. However that's not what GOAT means. Any modern BSc in physics can solve physics problems Newton couldn't even get started on, and most modern physics Phd's can solve physics problems Einstein couldn't have solved. Yet Newton and Einstein are considered the physics GOATs because of how much they advanced the physics of their day, rather than compared to what advances came afterwards (often built on their work). Fedor was one of the first well rounded MMA fighters, he had a huge influence. There's a reason so many top fighters consider him one of the GOAT's.

 

[yetanother]

It makes me wonder how many people who call some of the guys Fedor beat 'cans' could really beat said 'cans'. For my part, I don't think I could beat even guys like Choi Hong-man and Zuluzhino, so I can't call them cans with a straight face.

Doesn't can refer to a "tomato can", fighters who's purpose was to just get crushed. Hong Man Choi was scary in how big he was, even he wasn't so seriously mentally disabled (like if Hong Man had at least the intelligence of a smart dog or a bear) Fedor would be in trouble.

 

[AnotherOldGuy]

Doesn't can refer to a "tomato can", fighters who's purpose was to just get crushed. Hong Man Choi was scary in how big he was, even he wasn't so seriously mentally disabled (like if Hong Man had at least the intelligence of a smart dog or a bear) Fedor would be in trouble.

That makes sense for the origin of using 'can', though I first heard it used for team sports; quite possible it started in boxing and then was taken up by other sports.

Size is a real factor in any contact sport and is part of what makes a fighter good or bad. Its one reason I think people underestimate how hard it is to beat HW's when they say how bad the division is. As I said, if iHW really was as bad as fans (but not fighters) thought, everyone would be trying to put on weight (ie over-hydrating) to get into HW instead of torturing themselves to lose enough weight/water to avoid fighting HW's. Even an extremely dominant and skilled LHW like Jones goes through a week of dehydration to cut 20+ pounds to avoid fighting HW's. That tells you all you need to know about just how good HW's are in absolute terms.

As has been said in other contexts, quantity has its own quality.

 

[yetanother]

I said, if iHW really was as bad as fans (but not fighters) thought, everyone would be trying to put on weight (ie over-hydrating)

Hendo did drink water to make heavyweight before beating Fedor.

 

[Mr Rick]

That makes sense for the origin of using 'can', though I first heard it used for team sports; quite possible it started in boxing and then was taken up by other sports.

Size is a real factor in any contact sport and is part of what makes a fighter good or bad. Its one reason I think people underestimate how hard it is to beat HW's when they say how bad the division is. As I said, if iHW really was as bad as fans (but not fighters) thought, everyone would be trying to put on weight (ie over-hydrating) to get into HW instead of torturing themselves to lose enough weight/water to avoid fighting HW's. Even an extremely dominant and skilled LHW like Jones goes through a week of dehydration to cut 20+ pounds to avoid fighting HW's. That tells you all you need to know about just how good HW's are in absolute terms.

As has been said in other contexts, quantity has its own quality.

Heavy weights are hard to beat due to their size. However most of the great athletes at that size are off doing other sports that are easier and often pay more. So often the skill level as a whole is lower. They just aren’t deep divisions. Look at the heavyweights on local cards. They are usually poor texhnically and out of shape. But the deep divisions guys on regional shows display much better skills because they have to. As it is in the ufc I would still expect Jon jones to beat everyone at hw just as Cormier has.

 

[lechien]

For what it is worth.
I train with judokas
I train with judoka who did sambo.

It is not the same.
Trust me.

 

[AnotherOldGuy]

Heavy weights are hard to beat due to their size. However most of the great athletes at that size are off doing other sports that are easier and often pay more. So often the skill level as a whole is lower. They just aren’t deep divisions. Look at the heavyweights on local cards. They are usually poor texhnically and out of shape. But the deep divisions guys on regional shows display much better skills because they have to. As it is in the ufc I would still expect Jon jones to beat everyone at hw just as Cormier has.

Size is part of fighting (and all contact sports). If they really were technically poor and out of shape every WW, MW and LHW would be trying to fight at HW, because its easier to beat a technically poor and out of shape HW than a technically good and in shape WW, MW or LHW.

Lot's of people expect Jones to beat everyone at HW - however Jones himself doesn't. If he did he wouldn't go thru the torture of a week long water cut to make LHW ... something no one does unless they have to. I assume Jones has a pretty good sense of how he'd do against HW's, and so far his conclusion has been that his chances of losing are considerably higher at HW than at LHW (in fact so much higher that he's willing to dehydrate for 20+ pounds to avoid fighting HW's).

 

[AnotherOldGuy]

Hendo did drink water to make heavyweight before beating Fedor.

The exception that proves the rule. Why isn't every WW and up doing that to fight all the technically poor, out of shape HW's? It would be the logical thing to do.

On the one hand you can starve and dehydrate yourself to make 170 and fight hard WW's. On the other you can pig out and drink a lot of water to make 205 and fight easy to beat HW's. Seems like a pretty easy decision.

Seriously, ask the fighters themselves how bad HW's are. They'll tell you that, despite what fans say, HW's are damn hard to beat, and that even in shape lighter weights tire quickly trying to move around 250+ pound HW's.

 

[yetanother]

There are plenty of undersized HW's who could dehydrate and diet down to lighter weight classes.
In BJJ plenty of people go up. This year I grappled guys who had low level MMA fights at HW (one black belt who he had to cut down to HW because he was too fat) and tapped them.