Better base for MMA - Judo or BJJ?

[FightGuyOpenMind]

Fine, we can agree to disagree on the reasoning behind it, but you have to admit that Judo is worse off as a grappling system because of such changes. Right?

What they may have lost in one area, they may have gained in another. It would seem to me that more time would be focused on the moves for competition --- throws. However, if we give consideration to someone not knowing how to defend leg takedowns, then yes, that individual could be hindered in the grand scheme of grappling. If they face it, and don't have a response to it.

 

[Evan_The_Kid_1]

They can be done but a lot of them have a super high chance of getting you choked or giving up the back. Even Travis Stevens wrestles on no gi inatead of trying to do no gi judo. Some of them might be useful at times but so does a lot of other crazy things.

I myself am no expert, but just in sparring lately, I've been doing those kinds of throws that leave me open for chokes. I've just been adjusting them to where I land differently, or I just stay standing during the throw.

 

[yetanother]

In no-gi?

 

[Seefoo]

So you are suggesting that you think BJJers have better takedowns and defence than Greco as well as Judo now is that right? Just want to clarify this is as ridiculous as it sounds.
I think you know you are spewing bs on so many levels it is just silly.

Please explain how a grappler who trains to deal with takedown defense from all angles is going to be worse off than a grappler who only trains to deal with upper body takedowns.

Again, it doesnt matter if there are a few wrestlers who train at your BJJ class and you get train a bit of takedowns with them. Spending 5% of your time doing standing grappling is not going to make you a good standing grappler.

Oh look, you're making up numbers again!

Sport BJJers are well know for having abysmal takedowns in general, contradicting most everything you just said.

So just so we're clear here: You believe that guys like Garry Tonen, Gordon Ryan, Marcelo Garcia, Saulo and Xande Ribero, Andre Galvao, Marcus Buchecha, etc. have ABYSMAL takedowns?

Where to train no gi Judo? Well, aside from the Judo based MMA gyms out there if you have at least one or more training partners who are into mma, take off the jackets and you can do no gi, not all that difficult.

Name some Judo-based MMA gyms.

 

[Seefoo]

What they may have lost in one area, they may have gained in another. It would seem to me that more time would be focused on the moves for competition --- throws. However, if we give consideration to someone not knowing how to defend leg takedowns, then yes, that individual could be hindered in the grand scheme of grappling. If they face it, and don't have a response to it.

The banning of Leg Locks in Judo shows what eventually happens; The knowledge is eventually lost. Now Judoka are at a distinct disadvantage in grappling comps because they don't know that entire set of techniques. I don't feel that Judo has gained much of anything from these rule changes except allowing the Japanese to feel better about themselves.

 

[TheMaster]

BJJ has traditionally been a path to mma. Judo is Judo by itself. Many BJJ establishments, have mma teams, some share the academy space. Rodolfo is amazing, but how many BJJ guys will come to the table with great top pressure? Correct me if I'm wrong, but from what I've seen the staple of the style is the guard. The staple of Judo is the pin (on the ground). That is not a conclusion that Judo is therefore better, I am just examining the strengths.

Also, I think the standing clinch and the ability to be able to takedown an opponent without shooting for the legs is a plus, and under utilized. I think Fedor as a good example (SAMBO/Judo).

The staple of Judo is control.
Whether on the feet and off balancing, sweeping and throwing or following to the ground and pinning or gettting an explosive submission.
On the ground the top pressure will be different.
Apart from alot of the intricate gi based submissions of BJJ being obviously redundent in mma, much of the groundwork gi or no gi does not factor in striking on the ground.
The body control of wrestling and ability to get and keep top position is what allows them to gnp so effectively on the ground.
Judo is in many ways closer to this, top heavy pressure and weight for positional control and dominance. This can allow for transitioning to get the submission like BJJ, but often is equally effective for setting up gnp on the ground.

It was Randy Couture who said initially when he did BJJ his ground game suffered, as he allowed himself to lose position sometimes looking for a submission and wound up on his back more.
Then he decided to return to a more wrestler mindset and strive to get top position and then grind from there and gnp, and had far more success.

They can be done but a lot of them have a super high chance of getting you choked or giving up the back. Even Travis Stevens wrestles on no gi inatead of trying to do no gi judo. Some of them might be useful at times but so does a lot of other crazy things.

Not really. There are a few throws that involve more backturning like harai goshi and hanegoshi but many that do not. It is again situational when you would use these when the opponent is off balanced or in motion. There many throws that require minimal or no backturning at all.

Other times again it is a minor adjustment with even these throws not to put the hips all the way to still pull them off and they will still work. Once you have trained enough with Judo you are really not tied to exact specific technique. The leverage and momentum can be created to pull off the throws from odd and unexpected angles and positions so ideal forms of throw are seldom used.

Also the ability to control balance and sweep or trip is another way. I see many Greco guys doing this effectively using some of the Judo sweeps to add to their clinch takedowns it is basically the same.

 

[DatCutman]

The body control of wrestling and ability to get and keep top position is what allows them to gnp so effectively on the ground.
Judo is in many ways closer to this, top heavy pressure and weight for positional control and dominance. This can allow for transitioning to get the submission like BJJ, but often is equally effective for setting up gnp on the ground.

...so if the game is, "Whichever is more like wrestling is better for mma," why not just say the best base for MMA is wrestling?

 

[rmongler]

I would say that strength was not something that was heavily emphasized in traditional Judo. It was meant to use leverage, and "kuzushi" (off balancing) from my understanding. Wrestling is definitely about athleticism, and strength. They were trying to separate the two, in my estimation.

Lmao.

 

[FightGuyOpenMind]

Lmao.

I don't understand the humor, but let me elaborate:

Kano Jigoro was reportedly about 5'2, and 90 lbs. He used "kuzushi" (off balancing) in his techniques:

“ Usually it had been him that threw me. Now, instead of being thrown, I was throwing him with increasing regularity. I could do this despite the fact that he was of the Kito-ryu school and was especially adept at throwing techniques. This apparently surprised him, and he was quite upset over it for quite a while. What I had done was quite unusual. But it was the result of my study of how to break the posture of the opponent. It was true that I had been studying the problem for quite some time, together with that of reading the opponent's motion. But it was here that I first tried to apply thoroughly the principle of breaking the opponent's posture before moving in for the throw...
I told Mr. Iikubo about this, explaining that the throw should be applied after one has broken the opponent's posture. Then he said to me: "This is right. I am afraid I have nothing more to teach you."

Soon afterward, I was initiated in the mystery of Kito-ryu jujitsu and received all his books and manuscripts of the school.

”
— Kanō Jigorō, in reporting his discovery[15]
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kanō_Jigorō)

Wrestling being about athleticism, and strength I would think is self explanatory.

Where is the humor?

 

[DatCutman]

Wrestling being about athleticism, and strength I would think is self explanatory.

Where is the humor?

I would imagine rmongler's humor is derived from your ignorance regarding wrestling, and naivete regarding the importance of athleticism and and strength in Judo.

 

[FightGuyOpenMind]

I would imagine rmongler's humor is derived from your ignorance regarding wrestling, and naivete regarding the importance of athleticism and and strength in Judo.

If you wish to speak for another man, so be it.

I said traditionally. Judo definitely encompasses athleticism, and strength now. Traditionally, meaning it would be a question of was this the intent originally? I provided a quote straight from Kano Jigoro himself about "breaking the posture" which is off balancing or "kuzushi".

I wrestled myself in high school, strength and conditioning is a major major part of the game. If you say otherwise, then I would question which of us is ignorant.

Wrestlers bodies scream strength and athleticism(conditioning) as a whole.
Again, Kano Jigoro was not an imposing man.

 

[TheMaster]

...so if the game is, "Whichever is more like wrestling is better for mma," why not just say the best base for MMA is wrestling?

Would tend to agree thay wrestling particularly Greco supplemented with folkstyle can be considered as the 'best base' based on translatability to mma.

But Judo adapted no-gi is an equally good alternative as the 'best base' in my view.

Judo throws have alot of advantages
They allow to remain standing or transition straight to side control or mount/north south, not end up in guard or half guard like from a double or single.
Also the way of throwing is more dynamic than in wrestling and adds another dimension of possibilities.

Then there is still the mat work and submissions thst will build competence and familiarity.

Also the counters, sweeps and reversals not found in wrestling.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

If you wish to speak for another man, so be it.

I said traditionally. Judo definitely encompasses athleticism, and strength now. Traditionally, meaning it would be a question of was this the intent originally? I provided a quote straight from Kano Jigoro himself about "breaking the posture" which is off balancing or "kuzushi".

I wrestled myself in high school, strength and conditioning is a major major part of the game. If you say otherwise, then I would question which of us is ignorant.

Wrestlers bodies scream strength and athleticism(conditioning) as a whole.
Again, Kano Jigoro was not an imposing man.

T

Would tend to agree thay wrestling particularly Greco supplemented with folkstyle can be considered as the 'best base' based on translatability to mma.

But Judo adapted no-gi is an equally good alternative as the 'best base' in my view.

Judo throws have alot of advantages
They allow to remain standing or transition straight to side control or mount/north south, not end up in guard or half guard like from a double or single.
Also the way of throwing is more dynamic than in wrestling and adds another dimension of possibilities.

Then there is still the mat work and submissions thst will build competence and familiarity.

Also the counters, sweeps and reversals not found in wrestling.

No gi judo exist only in your head, there is no no gi judo competition in the world, not one serious at least who doesn’t get a bunch of larpers, if so, please provide a source where is this no gi judo that you talk about being practice or has high level athletes actually competing at it

 

[TheMaster]

I would love if there were widespread high level no-gi Judo competitions. From my experience it seems the words no-gi Judo makes some people start freaking out big time.

However, I said Judo adapted no-gi is an equally good base for mma as something like Greco, with its own advantages and disadvantages also.
Of course the biggest disadvantage is that it is not widely practiced like that which adds another step in applying it in mma, but not that it cant be done or that it is not brutally effective when it is done.
Places like Hayastan or any of the elite Russian mma gyms are where you will find Judo adapted no-gi and being used more often as a base currently.

With the rising populsrity of mma I wouldnt be surprised if it became more of a thing soon enough.

 

[Seefoo]

T


No gi judo exist only in your head, there is no no gi judo competition in the world, not one serious at least who doesn’t get a bunch of larpers, if so, please provide a source where is this no gi judo that you talk about being practice or has high level athletes actually competing at it

I'm still waiting for his list of Judo-based MMA gyms.

 

[TheMaster]

I'm still waiting for his list of Judo-based MMA gyms.

You can go to Russia and make a list.
Since Judo is one of the most popular bases there shouldnt be too hard.

Also while your there why not try out your theory that BJJ leg attacks are enough to takedown Greco -Roman wrestlers. Would be fun for you I'm sure.

I don't understand the humor, but let me elaborate:

Kano Jigoro was reportedly about 5'2, and 90 lbs. He used "kuzushi" (off balancing) in his techniques:

“ Usually it had been him that threw me. Now, instead of being thrown, I was throwing him with increasing regularity. I could do this despite the fact that he was of the Kito-ryu school and was especially adept at throwing techniques. This apparently surprised him, and he was quite upset over it for quite a while. What I had done was quite unusual. But it was the result of my study of how to break the posture of the opponent. It was true that I had been studying the problem for quite some time, together with that of reading the opponent's motion. But it was here that I first tried to apply thoroughly the principle of breaking the opponent's posture before moving in for the throw...
I told Mr. Iikubo about this, explaining that the throw should be applied after one has broken the opponent's posture. Then he said to me: "This is right. I am afraid I have nothing more to teach you."

Soon afterward, I was initiated in the mystery of Kito-ryu jujitsu and received all his books and manuscripts of the school.

”
— Kanō Jigorō, in reporting his discovery[15]
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kanō_Jigorō)

Wrestling being about athleticism, and strength I would think is self explanatory.

Where is the humor?

Kano and the founders of any system will try to show the essence of the art in its purest form.
Dont forget that the knowledge we have today and take for granted took sometimes generations to be distilled down.
To understand Kanos thought and subsequent decisions we have to know what was his intent when he formed Judo to begin with, not try to gaze back from our current vantage point and try to imagine what we think must have been his reasoning.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

You can go to Russia and make a list.
Since Judo is one of the most popular bases there shouldnt be too hard.

Also while your there why not try out your theory that BJJ leg attacks are enough to takedown Greco -Roman wrestlers. Would be fun for you I'm sure.



Kano and the founders of any system will try to show the essence of the art in its purest form.
Dont forget that the knowledge we have today and take for granted took sometimes generations to be distilled down.
To understand Kanos thought and subsequent decisions we have to know what was his intent when he formed Judo to begin with, not try to gaze back from our current vantage point and try to imagine what we think must have been his reasoning.

So, it’s basically just in your head, as we expected...

 

[TheMaster]

So, it’s basically just in your head, as we expected...

No Russia is not in my head.
Red devil gym where Fedor trains comes to mind.
Have referenced Hayastan many times also.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

No Russia is not in my head.
Red devil gym where Fedor trains comes to mind.
Have referenced Hayastan many times also.

Red devil gym is an mma gym based on sambo, not judo... hayastan I guess you can call it that, if you take away the strong catch influence on the gym... but I will give you that one..

 

[TheMaster]

Red devil gym is an mma gym based on sambo, not judo... hayastan I guess you can call it that, if you take away the strong catch influence on the gym... but I will give you that one..

There are no mma gyms 'based on sambo and not Judo'.
The majority of the practitioners do or have done both.

Red devil is MMA based Judo and Sambo, as is the norm in Russia

And Fedors dream was to be an Olympic Judoka.