Best Unarmed Combat System = Opposite of MMA?

[luckyshot]

MMA rules are designed to make sure fights are determined by skill, strength and athleticism. So if you want to have a shot at beating someone more skilled, stronger, and more athletic, not to mention bigger, doesn't it make sense to do the opposite of MMA?

The following acts are universally considered fouls in the mixed martial arts world:
Headbutting
Eye gouging
Hair pulling
Spitting
Biting
Fish-hooking
Attacking the groin
Strikes to the back of the head and spinal area (see rabbit punch)
Strikes to, or grabs of the trachea
Small joint manipulation (control of three or more fingers/toes is necessary)

Mixed martial arts rules - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Are TMA, MMA and Krav Maga all inferior to just practicing how to cheat?

Thoughts?

 

[Strychnine]

This guy's system is impregnable!

 

[Green Poncho]

I always figured the best unarmed combat system would be boxing, punches! No complicated moves or anything. As shown in a few videos such as that guy in Turkey who knocked out five guys with five punches while be chased by a mob and the rest of the mob was like fuck this and left him alone.

 

[animalistik]

Are TMA, MMA and Krav Maga all inferior to just practicing how to cheat?

Thoughts?

If practicing how to cheat means practicing what are normally fouls in MMA, I'm pretty sure Krav Maga already does that.

 

[Cmart]

So, say you're attacked in a bar by some dude and you're going to give him a garden-variety beating, and then he tries biting, eye gouging, or fish hooking you. What kind of treatment does he get then?

 

[jlagman]

MMA really needs to grow out of it's "real fighting" bullshit phase; it's a sport and sports don't emulate many realistic, day-to-day activities. I remember in one boxing vs. MMA argument, someone said something like, "it's like WRC vs NASCAR, while NASCAR does take skill, don't call it 'real driving' because it isn't." As if people think that racing in the desert or the snow is somehow a realistic depiction of normal driving.

 

[village_idiot]

There are plenty of moves that are legal in mma that are just as devastating as the "deadly" illegal ones.

Id rather be kicked in the nuts any day than put in a heel hook or any leg lock where the guy had no intention of respecting a tap.

Elbows are just as brutal as headbuts

Id rather go up against a guy who had trained to eye gouge people on invisible targets or compliant partners for years rather than someone with a couple years of solid boxing against competitve athletic sparring partners.


Biting is really the only one that I really see making any sort of difference in a no holds barred fight, but even then its not like its gonna stop you from getting your ass kicked if the guy is signficantly better than you... When I first started rolling in bjj, it was pretty obvious to me that the more experienced guys in the class would have f*cked me up on the ground whether I fought dirty or not. The same thing went through my mind when I started boxing, kicking them in the nuts would have more then likely just pissed them off.

At 5,9 185, I'm not exactly a big guy but I'm pretty strong/fast and generally have an athletic advantage over a lot of the people I face, but it was pretty obvious that wasn't enough to cancel out the advantage of people who actually had learned how to fight.

But even as a completely untrained person, I would have still probably felt pretty confident against a smaller guy who's only game plan would be to kick me in the nuts reach for my eyes... as I'm pretty sure I could have just done the same.

I think those "illegal" moves definately have their place in a serious fight, but I think its ridiculous to think they are actually a real substitute for actually knowing how to fight.


Knowing how to fight> tricks but

knowing how to fight with tricks>knowing how to fight assuming their isn't a large skill gap

 

[ColonelAngus1]

Don't know how much practice you need to eye gouge somebody. Wouldn't the MMA guys just have an advantage in a "no rules" fight because they'd be able to use their MMA skills and fight dirty?

What's an eye gouge going to do against a guy like Pat Barry that is kicking the shit out of your legs?

 

[FIERCE ANIMAL]

just act like a wild dog

 

[72Chambers]

...it's a sport and sports don't emulate many realistic, day-to-day activities...

lol...Movement is not realistic? Don't look at hitting a baseball as simply swinging a bat, it needs to be broken it down into hip flexion, knee extension, active and passive torso rotation, etc. These are all very realistic movements done in conjunction and individually in many day to day activities. Many skills in sport are transferable to ordinary routines. You may not think it is significant now, wait until you get old, slow, kyphotic, have trouble holding and opening doors and can't climb up the stairs. Of course, if done excessively, sport can be harmful to your body, but that's another topic...

Don't know how much practice you need to eye gouge somebody. Wouldn't the MMA guys just have an advantage in a "no rules" fight because they'd be able to use their MMA skills and fight dirty?

What's an eye gouge going to do against a guy like Pat Barry that is kicking the shit out of your legs?

I agree.

Combative sports and combative competition are important in presenting circumstances stressful enough to best simulate "real" fighting. They also teach fundamental movement and positioning so that you can use your "death blows" if you choose to...besides, how complicated is it to stick your fingers in someone's eyes?

 

[LilMountain]

Don't know how much practice you need to eye gouge somebody. Wouldn't the MMA guys just have an advantage in a "no rules" fight because they'd be able to use their MMA skills and fight dirty?

What's an eye gouge going to do against a guy like Pat Barry that is kicking the shit out of your legs?

I'm sure a no hesitation knuckle deep eye gouge would seriously fuck with someone's head, even beyond the physical pain and difficulty seeing, just the savagery and fears of permanent blindness would likely throw anyone off their game enough for a lesser fighter to at least escape

Edit: assuming of course you don't reveal your intentions to fight so dirty too soon and instead become the victim of dirty tactics by the better fighter first

 

[luckyshot]

I always figured the best unarmed combat system would be boxing, punches! No complicated moves or anything. As shown in a few videos such as that guy in Turkey who knocked out five guys with five punches while be chased by a mob and the rest of the mob was like fuck this and left him alone.

Punches are tough against someone who is bigger or faster than you. Or someone who just has a really hard head. Or someone who is just tougher than you and punches better.

So, say you're attacked in a bar by some dude and you're going to give him a garden-variety beating, and then he tries biting, eye gouging, or fish hooking you. What kind of treatment does he get then?

This is terrible reasoning. My goal isn't to get on the bad guy's good side and only get "mildly stomped." And I'm pretty sure if someone stuck his finger in my eye socket or bit my nose off, I'd be more worried about myself than revenge in that moment.

There are plenty of moves that are legal in mma that are just as devastating as the "deadly" illegal ones.

Id rather be kicked in the nuts any day than put in a heel hook or any leg lock where the guy had no intention of respecting a tap.

Elbows are just as brutal as headbuts

Id rather go up against a guy who had trained to eye gouge people on invisible targets or compliant partners for years rather than someone with a couple years of solid boxing against competitve athletic sparring partners.


....

At 5,9 185, I'm not exactly a big guy but I'm pretty strong/fast and generally have an athletic advantage over a lot of the people I face, but it was pretty obvious that wasn't enough to cancel out the advantage of people who actually had learned how to fight.

But even as a completely untrained person, I would have still probably felt pretty confident against a smaller guy who's only game plan would be to kick me in the nuts reach for my eyes... as I'm pretty sure I could have just done the same.

I think those "illegal" moves definately have their place in a serious fight, but I think its ridiculous to think they are actually a real substitute for actually knowing how to fight.

I'm not so sure. You ever see what happens in an MMA match when someone accidentally gets poked in the eye? The guy flails his arms like he's been shot, the ref jumps in and the action stops for 5 minutes... IF it continues at all. That doesn't usually happen when a jab lands.

I'm sure a no hesitation knuckle deep eye gouge would seriously fuck with someone's head, even beyond the physical pain and difficulty seeing, just the savagery and fears of permanent blindness would likely throw anyone off their game enough for a lesser fighter to at least escape

Exactly, when you stick your fingers in someone's eyes or grab their larynx, your not just attacking their body, you're attacking their mind, too. Plus, there are natural flinch responses. The biggest badass in the world is not just going to sit there while someone is gouging his eye... and he's not going to respond with a punch or a stab, either. He is going to FLINCH and when you do it again and again and again he's going to be in a state of being overwhelmed by pain and stimulus.

Just look at the video when Dimitri says to the much bigger, much more skilled opponenet, "Why aren't you submitting me?" "Because you're fingers were in my eyes... I wasn't even thinking about submissions."

 

[village_idiot]

I'm not so sure. You ever see what happens in an MMA match when someone accidentally gets poked in the eye? The guy flails his arms like he's been shot, the ref jumps in and the action stops for 5 minutes... IF it continues at all. That doesn't usually happen when a jab lands.

The reason guys react that way when poked in the eye vs punched in the face is because they know its illegal and there is really no reason for them to mask their discomfort. Those same fighters would react the same way to getting jabbed in the face if they were in a "grappling only" competition.

I've been poked in the eye quite hard in rolling and once during technical drills with mma gloves. I'm not going to pretend it didn't suck, and I did react simply because it was not within the rules of what we were doing. If i had actually been in a fight I would have not have allowed myself to show the same reaction and would have continued fighting.


Also, poking someone in the eye is not as easy as it sounds. It's like saying "punching someone in the jaw". It sounds easy, but against a good fighter with superior movement your just as unlikely to really get at their eyes as you are to hit them on the chin. Guys get hit in the eyes all the time in the UFC, but those are between two equally skilled professional athletes with a very developed sense of movement, reflexes and judging distance that were able to repeatedly hit eachother already over the course of the match.

 

[luckyshot]

The reason guys react that way when poked in the eye vs punched in the face is because they know its illegal and there is really no reason for them to mask their discomfort. Those same fighters would react the same way to getting jabbed in the face if they were in a "grappling only" competition.

I've been poked in the eye quite hard in rolling and once during technical drills with mma gloves. I'm not going to pretend it didn't suck, and I did react simply because it was not within the rules of what we were doing. If i had actually been in a fight I would have not have allowed myself to show the same reaction and would have continued fighting.


Also, poking someone in the eye is not as easy as it sounds. It's like saying "punching someone in the jaw". It sounds easy, but against a good fighter with superior movement your just as unlikely to really get at their eyes as you are to hit them on the chin. Guys get hit in the eyes all the time in the UFC, but those are between two equally skilled professional athletes with a very developed sense of movement, reflexes and judging distance that were able to repeatedly hit eachother already over the course of the match.

I challenge you to grapple with someone with eye gouging allowed. Light pressure, of course, not hard. I challenge you to not react when someone's fingers are making contact with your eyes.

Post a video of yourself if you can do this, because you have been successful in overriding hundreds or thousands of years of evolutionary response.

Also, how is it hard to get your fingers in someone's eyes from close range?

 

[village_idiot]

I challenge you to grapple with someone with eye gouging allowed. Light pressure, of course, not hard. I challenge you to not react when someone's fingers are making contact with your eyes.

Post a video of yourself if you can do this, because you have been successful in overriding hundreds or thousands of years of evolutionary response.

Also, how is it hard to get your fingers in someone's eyes from close range?

When I say not "react" I meant not curling up into a defensive position and wilting due to the attack... i figured that was obvious.

Your obviously going to react in some sense to any sort of attack especially one like an eye gouge. But simply moving around and not sitting their while someone gouges your eyes is not really that difficult. So yes, its harder than alot of people seem to think to get your fingers in someones eyes and consistently apply pressure enough to make the attack truly damaging.

You may argue this with me all you want, but I'm fairly confident that if someone without any grappling training tried to gouge my eyes from the top during a roll they would immediately be swept or submitted for putting their arm forward. If I'm on top of them there's really no way their going to effectively be able to eye gouge without me simply posturing up and punching them or taking the arm they were using and ripping it off.

Like I said in my original post, if a skilled grappler tried to do that to me i would be in trouble, but some retard whos never grappled before is gonna get dominated whether he wants to fight dirty or not... the skill gap is just too big.


By the way Luckyshot, im interested to know what your training background is. (its not a loaded question, just curious)

 

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

All theoretical bullshit.

Why ? Because unlike MMA/Boxing/Judo/etc. you can't train durty stuff live. So you won't be able to do them live.

Oh and to the guy that used the argument that you won't be thinking about submissions if you're getting eye gouged. Maybe, but will you be thinking about eye gouge if you're getting submitted ?

You cannot know how much a trained combat athlete will fuck up the shit of an untrained person.

 

[village_idiot]

All theoretical bullshit.

Why ? Because unlike MMA/Boxing/Judo/etc. you can't train durty stuff live. So you won't be able to do them live.

/thread.

This is essentially a more blunt version of what I believe as well, in far less words.

Attacks are not going to be as effective when trained in light drilling against compliant partners compared to moves that are practiced regularly at close to 100% against fully resisting, highly skilled opponents. A straight right from a competitive, skilled amateur boxer is going to f*ck you up as much as any "illegal move"


If you want to fight dirty... stab or shoot someone.

 

[luckyshot]

When I say not "react" I meant not curling up into a defensive position and wilting due to the attack... i figured that was obvious.

Your obviously going to react in some sense to any sort of attack especially one like an eye gouge. But simply moving around and not sitting their while someone gouges your eyes is not really that difficult. So yes, its harder than alot of people seem to think to get your fingers in someones eyes and consistently apply pressure enough to make the attack truly damaging.

You may argue this with me all you want, but I'm fairly confident that if someone without any grappling training tried to gouge my eyes from the top during a roll they would immediately be swept or submitted for putting their arm forward. If I'm on top of them there's really no way their going to effectively be able to eye gouge without me simply posturing up and punching them or taking the arm they were using and ripping it off.

Like I said in my original post, if a skilled grappler tried to do that to me i would be in trouble, but some retard whos never grappled before is gonna get dominated whether he wants to fight dirty or not... the skill gap is just too big.


By the way Luckyshot, im interested to know what your training background is. (its not a loaded question, just curious)

Don't think of it in isolation. What if you attacked the eyes, then the throat, then the eyes again, then the throat again, etc., etc. like a chainsaw? How much would that take your opponent out of any sort of offense or aggression?

I'm a BJJ brown belt, BTW. I got into MMA shortly after 9/11. I haven't trained much in the last couple of years, though.

All theoretical bullshit.

Why ? Because unlike MMA/Boxing/Judo/etc. you can't train durty stuff live. So you won't be able to do them live.

Oh and to the guy that used the argument that you won't be thinking about submissions if you're getting eye gouged. Maybe, but will you be thinking about eye gouge if you're getting submitted ?

You cannot know how much a trained combat athlete will fuck up the shit of an untrained person.

Oh really, dipshit? That's why all the ultra violent criminals of the world are trained combat athletes?

Here's what I know about submissions: in order to submit someone, you have to close the gap, get the clinch, pummel for dominant position, get a take down, establish dominant position on the ground and secure a clean submission. All while a third person could be trying to kick your head off.

In order to stick your fingers into someone's eyes, the only requirement is that you are close enough to touch his face.

 

[lts5025]

Jesus Christ, Jigoro Kano figured this shit out 130 years ago.

 

[teamcarvalho]

All theoretical bullshit.

Why ? Because unlike MMA/Boxing/Judo/etc. you can't train durty stuff live. So you won't be able to do them live.

Oh and to the guy that used the argument that you won't be thinking about submissions if you're getting eye gouged. Maybe, but will you be thinking about eye gouge if you're getting submitted ?

You cannot know how much a trained combat athlete will fuck up the shit of an untrained person.

+1 on this.