Best Grappler In The UFC?

[Zebra Cheeks]

The reason why I brought up HW is because it's the only weight class where you'll have larger discrepancies in weight. Logically, if you can do something to a heavyweight (ie. knocking one out or taking one down) then you should be able to do it on virtually anyone. On a side note, the HW cap should be removed, the whole point of HW is to have no limit.

Yeah I get where your coming from. There’s so many factors weight class to weight class. Maybe at HW there’s a greater weight gap, but maybe the talent level is lower. It’s like another poster here I discussed this with who mentioned jones has handling DC on his resume. Which is a great argument for him, but you can’t fault a guy like khabib for not having wrestlers that talented available. Right?

 

[arcadeperfect]

Yeah I get where your coming from. There’s so many factors weight class to weight class. Maybe at HW there’s a greater weight gap, but maybe the talent level is lower. It’s like another poster here I discussed this with who mentioned jones has handling DC on his resume. Which is a great argument for him, but you can’t fault a guy like khabib for not having wrestlers that talented available. Right?

Law of diminishing returns when you reach a certain size at HW. When it comes to picking a best out of a certain group I nitpick certain details since we're picking from an already elite group. DC and GSP have the multiple weight class argument going for them. I honestly don't see Usman doing well at 185 at all. Khabib could win some at 170, but I doubt he stays undefeated at that weight class.

 

[Zebra Cheeks]

Law of diminishing returns when you reach a certain size at HW. When it comes to picking a best out of a certain group I nitpick certain details since we're picking from an already elite group. DC and GSP have the multiple weight class argument going for them. I honestly don't see Usman doing well at 185 at all. Khabib could win some at 170, but I doubt he stays undefeated at that weight class.

So question. If that’s true then why are the two longtime dominant guys we’ve seen at HW in the last 5 years always below 245?

 

[GSP_37]

Demian Maia will almost certainly finish his opponent if it goes to the ground.

 

[arcadeperfect]

So question. If that’s true then why are the two longtime dominant guys we’ve seen at HW in the last 5 years always below 245?

I said law of diminishing returns at a certain point at HW. That point seems to be around the 245 mark. Despite that, it's still difficult to wrestle someone heavier, weight is weight after all.

 

[Hellowhosthat]

Werdum is a 2x heavyweight ADCC winner, so probably him.

 

[mkt]

You are taking the competitive results of a subtopic--takedowns and defending takedowns--and extrapolating those results over the broader topic of overall grappling in order to deduce who is the better grappler. There are flaws to that.

No, I'm taking essential elements of grappling and saying if you can't impose your will and gameplan, then you're not the best grappler. You can be the world's best submission artist, but still lose to guys that would get LnP'd by Clay Guida or Jon Fitch...because you can't take them down. Ergo, you're not the best grappler. By the same token, you can have great takedowns but weak submission defense (e.g., Kevin Randleman who was submitted 7 times in 35 fights) and this also disqualifies you from being a grappling GOAT.

 

[Hotora86]

GSP probably, which is mind-blowing since he started out as a Karate guy.

I would cream my pants if we got Khabib vs GSP at WW btw.

 

[Hirashin]

Makachev!

 

[GreatSaintGuillotine]

So we are on the same page, far and away out wrestling Daniel Cormier is more impressive then any opponent Khabib has ever faced. Khabib was completely stuffed by Tibau over 3 rounds (in a controversial decision) and was taken down by a NAIA wrestler in Trujilo. If you are unfamiliar with amateur wrestling, NAIA is roughly equivalent to NCAA Division 2/3.

And Jon got taken down by Gus who was never a grappler. And while Khabib did get taken down, he displayed a wicked guard game. A bottom game is something we don't really see from Jon. I'd argue that helps the argument for Khabib because it shows his well rounded skills on the ground.

I would also add that overall "grappling" isn't just wrestling. Jon didn't just take Machida down, he then assaulted him with a head splitting elbow. Soon after he would jump on a standing guillotine and then drop Machida's lifeless body to the canvas. That is all grappling and Khabib has not remotely shown those types of abilities.

Khabib isn't as devastating with his GnP but he's extremely adept at landing ground strikes from any position. His positional grappling is off the charts, far and beyond anyone I've seen in MMA.

Jon has a wicked submission game for sure but Khabib is no slouch in his subs either. Killer mounted triangle game, kimuras, and RNCs all set up by his control positions.

I'd say Jon is a better finished for sure, no argument whatsoever. But in terms of the little details that make grappling elite, I would favor Khabib.

Also to be clear, Khabib is the best wrestler in his division and one of the best MMA adapted wrestlers of all time.

I'd agree with that.

I think Jon's TDD and wrestling are hard to match for anyone. He's easily one of the 3 best grapplers in the UFC. Arguably the best

 

[GreatSaintGuillotine]

maia would sub khabib in under a round. obvious choices are maia, jacare, and werdum

Maia lost to most of the wrestlers he fought. It'd probably go like the sheilds fight did.

I think everyone in the op are better grapplers than Werdum and Jacare ever were

 

[fortheo]

No, I'm taking essential elements of grappling and saying if you can't impose your will and gameplan, then you're not the best grappler. You can be the world's best submission artist, but still lose to guys that would get LnP'd by Clay Guida or Jon Fitch...because you can't take them down. Ergo, you're not the best grappler. By the same token, you can have great takedowns but weak submission defense (e.g., Kevin Randleman who was submitted 7 times in 35 fights) and this also disqualifies you from being a grappling GOAT.

My issue was that you intimated that the wrestlers like Usman and Colby were better overall grapplers than maia.

What you're describing is the well known idea that styles make fights. Just because someone has better takedowns and takedown defense than Maia doesn't mean they are better OVERALL grapplers, which is what this thread is about. What it does mean is that guys like Usman or Covington specialize in a small area of grappling that allowed them to shut down Maia's broader, more expansive and better grappling game.

When we're talking about the best overall grapplers, there's much more to look at than just takedown and takedown defense.

Obviously khabib and GSP are above Maia in terms of being able to implement their grappling. But I'll remind you that Maia has faced more collegiate wrestlers than both of them and he still has the 6th most Takedowns landed in the UFC ever and he has the 2nd most submissions.

 

[Mal Intentions]

Maia a WW who fought at MW many many times can sub a LW ! what an accomplishment ...

i agree

 

[Mal Intentions]

Salty Brazilian spotted
Maia went nearly 20 minutes with Askren but he’d tap Khabib in 1 yea ok bro

not even close to brazilian lmao. im a florida man

 

[maidana]

Georges has been retired for years.

He can take everyone down, but you can never take him down.

Alexander Gustafsson disagrees.

 

[BZeee]

If we're talking best and not p4p its JBJ and there is no other answer. Just be real. P4P he's still probably better than Khabib or GSP, too bad he spends most of his time grappling with his inner demons...

 

[maidana]

Salty Brazilian spotted

Salty Brazilian spotted

 

[rjmbrd]

Alexander Gustafsson disagrees.

Gus took him down once, by surprise, for about 3 seconds. It certainly showed off Gus's athleticism.

You may have missed the rematch, where Jon took Gus down and brutalized him on the ground in a third round TKO.

 

[rjmbrd]

And Jon got taken down by Gus who was never a grappler. And while Khabib did get taken down, he displayed a wicked guard game. A bottom game is something we don't really see from Jon. I'd argue that helps the argument for Khabib because it shows his well rounded skills on the ground.

Jon hasn't had the chance to show a guard off his back because no one has been capable of keeping him down. Gus did take him down by surprise but couldn't establish control. Jon got right up.

In the rematch, Jon took Gus down and absolutely brutalized him on the ground, putting him away in the third round.

Jon has pulled guard at the end of a round he was dominating YOLO for fun. He's been so far ahead of everybody he can do things like that. Don't get me wrong, Jon is a cheater and I think that has to be accounted for, but he has demonstrated one of the best all around MMA adapted grappling games in the history of the sport.

He cartoonishly split Machida's head open with an elbow after taking him down, then would drop his lifeless body to the canvas from a apropos of nothing standing guillotine. Its just a different thing then what everyone else is doing.

 

[Airdack]

GOAT panic-grappler.

Haters are getting ridiculous. Every thread about the UFC ends up back to Conor some how. How long he be living in your head rent free?

Obviously he isnt the best grappler and has zero relation to this thread. All the guys hate Conor but then post about him all day, it's pathetic.

I'll say Olivera is top 3.