Best Grappler In The UFC?

[Wizzlebiz]

Jon has a much deeper and more varied set of tools compared to Khabib, who is a specialist. If Jon had to only rely on wrestling to decision wins, he could do it.

Go back and review Jon's overall record and count up the number of guys he literally smashed on the ground.

You basically said it in these words.
John has a varied set of tools. Khabib is a specialist.

When it comes to pure grappling abilities the specialist in that aspect should get the nod. No?

 

[kalabula]

I know there’s a big size advantage. But there’s a video of Luke Rockhold, toying with him and subbing at will. Not to bash Chiesa, here. Just a shout out to Luke’s ground game.

 

[Zebra Cheeks]

Fair enough. Oddly, Khabib has had a relatively light strength of schedule, through no fault of his own. Tony will be the biggest challenge in his career by a country mile.



Cheers.

Are you making a prediction on Khabib x Tony yet?

I’ve got khabib winning because I think Tony’s primary tools like durability, cardio, etc.. have decreased over the years. 3 years ago it was a different discussion but in my book khabib has gotten better and I think tony slightly worse. But at the end of the way I won’t be shocked if he does something like finishes khabib with elbows from Guard on the bottom. Until we see it there’s no way to know haha. How about you?

 

[SeattleFightFan]

You basically said it in these words.
John has a varied set of tools. Khabib is a specialist.

When it comes to pure grappling abilities the specialist in that aspect should get the nod. No?

Right.

So who wins ADCC? Khabib, Jones, Maia, Jacare, Whittaker?

Can we include ex fighters like Vinny Magalhaes & Andre Galvao?

Or is the question "who implements grappling best in a UFC fight?" If so, does that include when Jacare doesn't take it to the ground because his opponents are so scared of his ground game, and then he knocks them stiff?

"Best" is a useless term for this conversation. It's like trying to solve a quadratic equation with 1 variable (oh shit, I just lost the dummies....)

 

[swarrrm]

 

[Wicked_1]

Maia is best BJJ guy, but I think khabibs the best overall grappler. While Maia has progressed a ton in takedowns and wrestling, he isnt at khabibs level at all in those areas. He has better BJJ sure, but not better at anything else. Gsp lost to fucking matt Hughes by armbar...yes he got way better, but is not on khabibs level, at all. Khabib is a generational talent and is so much better than everyone at what he does. Everyone knows what he is going to do...no one can stop him. He was already an elite wrestler when he joined aka and now has their elite grapplers techniques on top of all he already knew. He has gained a bunch innstriling department as well, buy strictly grappling in mma..he is the best by a large margin.

 

[seanb1979]

Great bjj but weak takedowns.

 

[mkt]

Weidman taking Maia down then refusing to grapple is hardly out grappling someone. Watch that fight again. About 14 minutes of the 15 minute fight was on the feet, and when it hit the mat, Weidman pulled away.

The point is Maia hasn't been able to implement his will in a number of fights against good wrestlers. The point isn't that wrestlers are always obligated to follow Maia to the ground. "Grappling" includes wrestling and TDs...not just rolling on the ground.

 

[mkt]

Maia is best BJJ guy, but I think khabibs the best overall grappler. While Maia has progressed a ton in takedowns and wrestling, he isnt at khabibs level at all in those areas. He has better BJJ sure, but not better at anything else. Gsp lost to fucking matt Hughes by armbar...yes he got way better, but is not on khabibs level, at all. Khabib is a generational talent and is so much better than everyone at what he does. Everyone knows what he is going to do...no one can stop him. He was already an elite wrestler when he joined aka and now has their elite grapplers techniques on top of all he already knew. He has gained a bunch innstriling department as well, buy strictly grappling in mma..he is the best by a large margin.

I wouldn't hold GSP's early loss to Hughes against him. I'd put prime, pre-ACL injury GSP (2008-2011) against any grappler or fighter at WW. He'd either outgrapple them or (in the case of someone like Maia) stuff their TDs and beat them standing.

 

[fortheo]

The point is Maia hasn't been able to implement his will in a number of fights against good wrestlers. The point isn't that wrestlers are always obligated to follow Maia to the ground. "Grappling" includes wrestling and TDs...not just rolling on the ground.

So Maia is a better striker than condit and matt brown because he cut them off with footwork and got them to bite on a jab feint before shooting?

 

[Wicked_1]

I wouldn't hold GSP's early loss to Hughes against him. I'd put prime, pre-ACL injury GSP (2008-2011) against any grappler or fighter at WW. He'd either outgrapple them or (in the case of someone like Maia) stuff their TDs and beat them standing.

I agree he could stop maia in tds, maia as far as tds ..its his weakness besides striking. Gsp was made to beat wrestlers. The division was full of them when he came up. He has really good wrestling for sure, I just dont think he has khabib level wrestling. Khabib was found too and didnt lose. Gsp wasn't exactly green when he fought hughes...he worked his was tongue title fight. When he lost, it changed him and he focused on beating wrestlers at their own game. He did not well and because an all time great because of that loss. It totally made him change his gameplan and focus on stopping wrestlers.

 

[XXXXXLPREDAT0R]

Francis

He have hardest punch and tightest for choke

Constricting that more then times ten Python... holy fucking shit

 

[pick999]

Jon>everyone else

 

[arcadeperfect]

I feel like you have to go with either usman or khabib. DC gets some love, but he has Struggled vs stipe and jones with wrestling.

DC is also wrestling guys way bigger than him. Grappling becomes harder when you move up a weight class, look at Weidman and Rockhold. They were giants at 185 and can't bully people around at 205.

 

[mkt]

So Maia is a better striker than condit and matt brown because he cut them off with footwork and got them to bite on a jab feint before shooting?

No, that's a red herring. The point is if you're the superior grappler, you determine exactly how much grappling you want to do and where it will take place. Again, grappling encompasses all non-striking arts (including wrestling), and if you're wrestling/TDs aren't elite, you won't be able to grapple as much as you'd like.

 

[fortheo]

No, that's a red herring. The point is if you're the superior grappler, you determine exactly how much grappling you want to do and where it will take place. Again, grappling encompasses all non-striking arts (including wrestling), and if you're wrestling/TDs aren't elite, you won't be able to grapple as much as you'd like.

You are taking the competitive results of a subtopic--takedowns and defending takedowns--and extrapolating those results over the broader topic of overall grappling in order to deduce who is the better grappler. There are flaws to that.

 

[Zebra Cheeks]

DC is also wrestling guys way bigger than him. Grappling becomes harder when you move up a weight class, look at Weidman and Rockhold. They were giants at 185 and can't bully people around at 205.

Right but it’s people relative to his size. He’s the first one to say he’s his best at HW....so, I have to judge him as a HW. That’s where he started, that’s where he’s ending. Some of his strongest wrestling performances were at HW against guys like Roy Nelson. So I can’t give him credit for that, then when it doesn’t work out say “well, you know, he dropped down to LHW for a bit so...it’s not a big deal” when one of the major guys who out wrestled him is Jones who is the LHW champ.

 

[dragmaster]

Maia.

 

[arcadeperfect]

Right but it’s people relative to his size. He’s the first one to say he’s his best at HW....so, I have to judge him as a HW. That’s where he started, that’s where he’s ending. Some of his strongest wrestling performances were at HW against guys like Roy Nelson. So I can’t give him credit for that, then when it doesn’t work out say “well, you know, he dropped down to LHW for a bit so...it’s not a big deal” when one of the major guys who out wrestled him is Jones who is the LHW champ.

The reason why I brought up HW is because it's the only weight class where you'll have larger discrepancies in weight. Logically, if you can do something to a heavyweight (ie. knocking one out or taking one down) then you should be able to do it on virtually anyone. On a side note, the HW cap should be removed, the whole point of HW is to have no limit.

 

[YouCrazyIntheHeadMan]

Jake shield