International Bernie Sanders Spoke Out Against Open Borders in 2015

[Cajun]

You laughed at my post first so too late, you got your reply.

Fair play old boy... fair play haha. Will respond in a bit. Im gonna head out to the gym. Do hope the morning is good.

 

[Islam Imamate]

I did. You first said no and then said actually yes but its okay because blah.

I said no it won't reduce wage growth generally while it might in those specific industries.

You see how that distinction matters right? If something benefits all workers despite slightly reducing wages in a specific field that works out for the greater good.

 

[Mr Holmes]

I said no it won't reduce wage growth generally while it might in those specific industries.

You see how that distinction matters right? If something benefits all workers despite slightly reducing wages in a specific field that works out for the greater good.

Okay, I was actually only asking about those fields. So you agree its bad for Americans that want to work in something like roofing.

 

[Islam Imamate]

Okay, I was actually only asking about those fields.

That's a myopic analysis though.

So you agree its bad for Americans that want to work in something like roofing.

No because it gives them access to cheap labor they can hire to do roofing.

 

[Mr Holmes]

That's a myopic analysis though.

No because it gives them access to cheap labor they can hire to do roofing.

That's only good for the guy running the company.

 

[White Whale]

Dennis Kucinich says we need to close the border. Democrats such as Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton have said the border must be secured. It's a straight forward issue a country without borders doesn't exist.

 

[Islam Imamate]

That's only good for the guy running the company.

It's also good for the people hiring that guy as he can now offer cheaper roofing services which means more people can afford it.

Surely you don't think making construction more expensive is good for Americans overall right?

 

[Mr Holmes]

It's also good for the people hiring that guy as he can now offer cheaper roofing services which means more people can afford it.

Surely you don't think making construction more expensive is good for Americans overall right?

Most countries find a way to manage without them. Why is it so hard for you to admit illegal immigration hurts some Americans?

 

[Islam Imamate]

Most countries find a way to manage without them.

Most countries are not as economically vibrant as the US.

Why is it so hard for you to admit illegal immigration hurts some Americans?

Well if you've been paying attention I did admit that wages in industries that immigrants work will fall, I just think that overall more people benefit and it's a clear net good for the economy.

Why is it so hard for you to admit that? Surely you don't think making construction and agriculture more expensive will benefit Americans at large right?

 

[Kassitus]

Most countries are not as economically vibrant as the US.

Well if you've been paying attention I did admit that wages in industries that immigrants work will fall, I just think that overall more people benefit and it's a clear net good for the economy.

Why is it so hard for you to admit that? Surely you don't think making construction and agriculture more expensive will benefit Americans at large right?

Ah, so you fall into the camp that this is a bad idea everywhere else in the world but for America its a good thing? Having the ability to regulate immigration and control who gets in will always be a benefit. Any worker we might have benefited from could have come through a legal channel. Having an underclass of people working for dirt cheap seems kinda messed up too.

 

[Islam Imamate]

Ah, so you fall into the camp that this is a bad idea everywhere else in the world but for America its a good thing?

Kinda yeah though the EU technically has open borders between their member states and it works there too for the most part.

But yes many countries can't get away with this kind of policy for a variety of reasons but the US is exceptional in attracting and integrating immigrants as well as in its strategic depth and security.

Other countries can probably do it too if they have neighbors with whom they have good relations and whose economies are complimentary in some way. In the case of the US and Latin America the US economy is very dynamic and productive so it hungers for workers while Latin America is plagued by corruption and violence so there's a pool of labor that is willing and able to make it here to work.

Having the ability to regulate immigration and control who gets in will always be a benefit.

Sure but I'm saying it should be trivially easy for people to sign up with the government and start working.

That's what Biden did with the CNHV program which made it easy for people fleeing failed states and socialist dictatorships to come here and start working.

Any worker we might have benefited from could have come through a legal channel.

Okay so make it easier for them to come legally.

Having an underclass of people working for dirt cheap seems kinda messed up too.

I disagree, it's mutually beneficial. Those people are earning more here than in their home countries while reducing labor costs in America.

 

[Croo67]

Back before he, and the rest of them, got the biggest pay cheques of their life to support their country being infested with third worlders.

 

[Blayt7hh]

But don't you think its bad for American worker's wages?

It can be. I think the answer is you provide all immigrants with the same worker protections and you go after companies that hire illegal workers- doubly hard if they were violating worker protections and Pauling under minimum. This way jobs for illegals dry up and less will want to given here illegally.

You can’t let too many people in. There’s only so much wealth to share. There are legitimate examples of immigrants supporting industries the right way. Part of what made the “they’re eating the cats and dogs” panic about the hatians in Ohio so appalling to me is that those immigrants weren’t illegal and they were brought in to save the town. The actual community there is happy to have them.

 

[Crazy Source]

If Biden wanted to firm but fair on justice he should've locked Trump up like Brazil is doing to Bolsonaro and if he did so we wouldn't be in this mess.

Hillary Clinton "somehow" won by winning more votes.

The real mistake was not running Biden in 2016 right after he finished his term as Obama's VP. If he could beat an incumbent Trump in 2020 I think he dominates in 2016.

Dat Clinton money got her to the front of the line. Shoulda woulda coulda.

 

[nonoob]

Back before he, and the rest of them, got the biggest pay cheques of their life to support their country being infested with third worlders.

At the expense to, and the endangering of safety of, the American Taxpayers.

 

[Islam Imamate]

Dat Clinton money got her to the front of the line. Shoulda woulda coulda.

Sure she had more money but she also had a bigger profile going into the primary.

I voted for Bernie twice in the primaries but at the end of the day he lost fair and square both times.

​

You disagree that the US is uniquely good at attracting and integrating immigrants? Who does it better?

It can be. I think the answer is you provide all immigrants with the same worker protections and you go after companies that hire illegal workers- doubly hard if they were violating worker protections and Pauling under minimum. This way jobs for illegals dry up and less will want to given here illegally.

You can’t let too many people in. There’s only so much wealth to share. There are legitimate examples of immigrants supporting industries the right way. Part of what made the “they’re eating the cats and dogs” panic about the hatians in Ohio so appalling to me is that those immigrants weren’t illegal and they were brought in to save the town. The actual community there is happy to have them.

I would disagree with this. Immigrants don't come here to share in the wealth of the nation, they come here to increase it through their work and in the case of students and high skilled immigration through their innovation and expertise. Its not a zero-sum game, for the most part immigration to the US is mutually beneficial for the immigrants, for Americans, and arguably for their home countries as a result of remittances.

Of course there is theoretically some hard limit as to how many people can come here while still maintaining the mutually beneficial relationship but that number is far higher than the average person imagines it to be.

 

[Kassitus]

Kinda yeah though the EU technically has open borders between their member states and it works there too for the most part.

But yes many countries can't get away with this kind of policy for a variety of reasons but the US is exceptional in attracting and integrating immigrants as well as in its strategic depth and security.

Other countries can probably do it too if they have neighbors with whom they have good relations and whose economies are complimentary in some way. In the case of the US and Latin America the US economy is very dynamic and productive so it hungers for workers while Latin America is plagued by corruption and violence so there's a pool of labor that is willing and able to make it here to work.

Sure but I'm saying it should be trivially easy for people to sign up with the government and start working.

That's what Biden did with the CNHV program which made it easy for people fleeing failed states and socialist dictatorships to come here and start working.

Okay so make it easier for them to come legally.

I disagree, it's mutually beneficial. Those people are earning more here than in their home countries while reducing labor costs in America.

It's mutually beneficial for big business and a select number of migrants who get in without ending up with regret because of the many tragedies that might befall them with undertaking the endeavor. It's detrimental for unions, for citizens who want a high wage, for anyone affected by the strain on infrastructure. Its detrimental for the third world developing countries which are losing people who are workers and family members who would otherwise be helping them develop.

 

[Islam Imamate]

It's mutually beneficial for big business and a select number of migrants who get in without ending up with regret because of the many tragedies that might befall them with undertaking the endeavor.

Not just big business, business generally and especially small businesses like small farms and contractors who benefit from being able to have cheap labor.

That then benefits their customers who get cheaper services and products. The immigrants benefit from being paid more for their work than they would in their countries. Of course they also take risks in the form of braving the journey to the US as well as in the industries they work in like construction and agriculture which is physically demanding. But for many of them its more than worth the risk.

It's detrimental for unions, for citizens who want a high wage, for anyone affected by the strain on infrastructure.

It is detrimental to unions but I don't care about that, for the most part I am not in favor of unions. Its detrimental to them because unions want to engage rent seeking and cheap, non-union labor undermines that but union rent seeking generally comes at the expense of the wider economy.

Its not detrimental to citizens who want a high wage, those citizens can go work in higher value industries if they want. In fact its beneficial to most citizens as it drops the price of critical goods like groceries and housing.

The onus on updating infrastructure is on cities who do so very badly at the moment.

Its detrimental for the third world developing countries which are losing people who are workers and family members who would otherwise be helping them develop.

Well those countries also benefit from remittances though I won't claim that those remittances make up for the brain drain in every case. My guess would be that countries that provide low skill labor for industries like construction and agriculture receive a net benefit from the remittances while those that lose highly educated and skilled workers might receive a net loss despite remittances because of the loss of human capital. Either way we, as in the US, still benefit.

 

[Kassitus]

Not just big business, business generally and especially small businesses like small farms and contractors who benefit from being able to have cheap labor.

That then benefits their customers who get cheaper services and products. The immigrants benefit from being paid more for their work than they would in their countries. Of course they also take risks in the form of braving the journey to the US as well as in the industries they work in like construction and agriculture which is physically demanding. But for many of them its more than worth the risk.

It is detrimental to unions but I don't care about that, for the most part I am not in favor of unions. Its detrimental to them because unions want to engage rent seeking and cheap, non-union labor undermines that but union rent seeking generally comes at the expense of the wider economy.

Its not detrimental to citizens who want a high wage, those citizens can go work in higher value industries if they want. In fact its beneficial to most citizens as it drops the price of critical goods like groceries and housing.

The onus on updating infrastructure is on cities who do so very badly at the moment.

Well those countries also benefit from remittances though I won't claim that those remittances make up for the brain drain in every case. My guess would be that countries that provide low skill labor for industries like construction and agriculture receive a net benefit from the remittances while those that lose highly educated and skilled workers might receive a net loss despite remittances because of the loss of human capital. Either way we, as in the US, still benefit.

The problem is just expecting cities to make it work no matter what circumstance they are in. Best case scenario they commit to a long term plan of blocking high density housing to essentially just redirect the strain on infrastructure to its neighboring cities. The problem is this creates class conflict where you can buy into living in a functional neighborhood, or you can't and it's your job to drive in traffic hell with potholes everywhere, not have a family doctor, every trash can is overflowing with trash, etc. Federal governments need to act responsibly so that municipalities have a fair shot at making it all work.

The durability of America will be tested, maybe they will weather the storm where others have failed, but I am not optimistic about that.

 

[deviake]

Reasonable.

I'm pro immigration/immigrants and ICE needs to be dismantled. I am also protectionist of American labor and I'm against all exploitation. There should be no loopholes to exploit immigrants and the system needs to be streamlined. The "Americans don't wanna work" shit annoys the hell out of me. That is businessman speak. Americans do a lot of rough/shitty jobs - I've done plenty myself.