Bernie and the Economy

I don't think debt forgiveness is a practical solution.

My idea establish a task to help students get out of illegally sold loans. Currently they are cop like $30,000 in lawyers fees for a chance at avoiding an illegal debt. Of course once precedent has been established costs will be very low.

Refinance the rest at a small margin over the 10year bond rate.
 
Bernie's policies help the poor and middle class.

Trump's policies help the super rich.


I may not agree with every single thing he wants to do, but overall I think Bernie's got the right idea.

As the wealth gap continues to grow, the government should be looking to help those in need... instead of further enriching the top 1%.
 
Economy would take a dip a dippity-doo while corporations threw a fit. In the longterm his policies would be a benefit with ground-up ecnomics with proper support for government-funded infrastructure projects..... queue the fear of cuckservatives screaming about how it will turn into communism as if our societies work anything like the 1940s and ignore authoritarianism from either private/public sector being the problem.
 
I’m not a fan of student loan forgiveness, but it’s fine (it’s not moving me either way). I think if we are prioritizing on how to spend tax dollars it would be better focused on making sure low income kids that can cut it can go to college and job training for the ones that aren’t college bound. Individuals decide to take out loans and on average benefit from their degrees (the ones that are in trouble, for the most part, took on loans and never graduated). The underlying problem is the cost of college and this doesn’t address that. If it’s means tested and funded in a progressive I can live with it. But there is a case to be made here in terms of personal responsibility.

I think we it comes to m4a we need to be honest about the range of outcomes. On the high end we dramatically improve our system, everyone is covered and we reduce costs. On the other end it causes a severe recession and isn’t effective. We are looking to take a wrecking ball to a trillion dollar, extremely complex industry and we know that Republicans will seek to undermine it at every level of government for years and years.

I’m very skeptical of simple answers to how m4a impacts the economy. It’s never been done on a diverse country of this size. Our healthcare industry is bigger than most country’s entire GDP. It may be the best way to get everyone covered if we had a do over (we deeply entrenched in the way we do it now) and I’d say we should try it if our country was on board with it. If it’s going to work we need the country and it’s political leaders behind it and we don’t have that. Sadly, massive programs aren’t going to work as long as the GOP is alive and obtaining power.
 
Last Samurai said:
Bernie's policies help the poor and middle class.

Trump's policies help the super rich.
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How does destroying major industries such as moving all stock and commodities markets overseas, forcing investment funds to to leave the country, wiping out 55% of everyone's retirement portfolios, and destroying the domestic energy industry help the middle class?
 
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He's a socialist and Europe has proven socialism works better than capitalism. I think im gonna vote for him
 
The idea that under a free college system the state colleges will all collapse is ridiculous. That isn’t the case in any developed country that controls its university and college system. An effective bureaucracy can manage internal costs and keep them from bloating, especially when the negotiating body is the government itself. Right now institutions have a free hand to charge high tuitions, pay coaches millions of dollars...basically do whatever they want. That stops when they stop dealing with single individuals and start dealing with a collective body. They are forced to stop gouging people to pay for their largess.

As for companies simply moving offshore to avoid the New York stock exchange etc, Bernie has counters for that. First is any companies they are associated with get no government contracts, period. Meaning they are shut out of getting work from the American federal government. That means billions flowing to corporations who stick around. Second is by enhancing social security he will be making up for pension loses and other problems. Third, with universal health care, business have the cost of their employees medical expenses taken off their shoulders. Small and medium sized businesses will actually be able to compete again to replace the businesses that leave or buck the new system.
 
Aegon Spengler said:
As for companies simply moving offshore to avoid the New York stock exchange etc, Bernie has counters for that. First is any companies they are associated with get no government contracts, period. Meaning they are shut out of getting work from the American federal government. That means billions flowing to corporations who stick around.
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And up go Bernie's (financial) walls..

Trump's building a wall to keep people out -- you know that won't work.
Bernie wants to build walls to keep people in -- you should also know that won't work. You should also know what the consequences of these things (capital controls) have been historically. This is the kind of thing that Venezuela does.
 
We gave trillions to billionaires in tax breaks the last 3 years how can we pay for Bernie's economic plans? We should cut Medicare, social security and programs that help feed the poor we don't have money for any stimulus unless we tax the billionaires and establishment types. Will never let happen Nancy and Mitch will never let that happen. :)


In more great economic news.
 
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superpunch said:
And up go Bernie's (financial) walls..

Trump's building a wall to keep people out -- you know that won't work.
Bernie wants to build walls to keep people in -- you should also know that won't work. You should also know what the consequences of these things (capital controls) have been historically. This is the kind of thing that Venezuela does.
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The United States operates under a totally different set of circumstances. Nobody is going to be sanctioning the U.S. or trying to undermine its trade relationships because Bernie gave people medicare for all. The idea of the U.S. suddenly becoming "Venezuela" because the government starts to reign in corporations is genuinely ludicrous.
 
Yeah, fuck everyone who did things right.
 
Aegon Spengler said:
The United States operates under a totally different set of circumstances. Nobody is going to be sanctioning the U.S. or trying to undermine its trade relationships because Bernie gave people medicare for all. The idea of the U.S. suddenly becoming "Venezuela" because the government starts to reign in corporations is genuinely ludicrous.
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You can't force the entire world to trade commodities on your exchanges lmao. You can't force international companies to list on your stock exchanges lol. You can't force international investment funds to invest their money in US assets. Are you seriously suggesting that Bernie is going to tell foreigners to trade oil on the CME or else? Force foreign companies to go public on the NYSE?? Tell foreigners to invest their money in only American companies??

Money flows where it's treated best. The US treats it great so money flows here. Bernie's financial transaction tax makes our markets the least attractive in the world. So, all the money would flow out.

There are 2 ways to try to get and keep money in your country: 1) Voluntarily by attracting it with good economic policy, or, 2) Via force and coercion

2) never works

We're supposed to be a free country anyways. Building (financial) walls around Americans to keep them fenced in is just anti-American.
 
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superpunch said:
How does destroying major industries such as moving all stock and commodities markets overseas, forcing investment funds to to leave the country, wiping out 55% of everyone's retirement portfolios, and destroying the domestic energy industry help the middle class?
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What gives you the idea Bernie would do all that?
 
Loan forgiveness would probably have a large stimulus effect. M4A won’t happen any time soon, so we’d probably have something with too much of both and not enough of either for a while.

But, if some decent version of a uhc solution does take the onus of providing insurance off of employers, my sense is that would be quite a boon, even considering progressive tax hikes. It should drive up wages, encourage entrepreneurship, and promote mobility. On the other hand, a lot depends on whether or not the overall cost of health care actually goes down as a result. I think we need to consider carefully how to make that happen, so we shouldn’t just cling to m4a as the only acceptable solution. His stubbornness on this issue is really my only problem with Bernie.
 
superpunch said:
He wants to implement a financial transaction tax and ban fracking.
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Looks like the EU is considering a similar tax, which would create a level playing field - hardly the financial Armageddon you described.

Fracking is causing a lot of environmental damage to local communities. Any responsible country would have restrictions in place to protect the well-being of it's citizens.

Good leadership is not about giving the corporations everything they ask for. What is in the best interest of corporations often is not in the best interest of the people.
 
Overtures said:
Let's devote this thread to discussing the effects of Bernie's policies on the economy, whether good or bad. Which is to say, let's not limit this to his economic policies but how all of his polices would effect the economy.

I have recently decided to back Bernie without knowing much at all about his platform. Here's what I do know -

He supports student loan debt forgiveness.

Great idea in my opinion. Student loans were given out far below sub-prime lending standards and it's drowning multiple generations in debt they will never pay off. If we relieve this burden from them, they will be can funnel their debt money into consumption or investment.

He supports universal healthcare.

Also good with me. I'd be more than happy to pay extra in taxes to help achieve this goal. The overall quality of life in the country would soar.


Overall - I think Bernie's policies may slow the economy down, perhaps. But I see a net positive in the above. Secondly, the US Economy survived three years of market volatility due to Trump's trade war and erratic behavior. We're seeing something much more resilient than we anticipated.

And lastly, what are the measurable differences between a good economy and a bad economy? And do I really want to let those measurable differences force my hand in making decisions that are against my moral impulses?
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how do you pay for it?
 
Pseudo Sane said:
some good stuff will undoubtedly occur as well, since a bunch of ex-students will have a ton of disposable income which previously went to servicing debt,
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Good for the students who went to expensive universities, not everybody else. Being tens of thousands of dollars in debt is causing a lot of these ex-students who went to expensive universities to not buy homes. If they're debt is cancelled by the government, people who have the most eyecatching resumes (at least on the Education line, which often entails making connections i.e. getting to know the right people) will now buy homes, driving up the prices for people who didn't go to BU, NYU, GWU, etc. Having debt cancelled also increases these ex-students' economic mobility. To qualify for certain jobs a person cannot be heavily in debt.

It's laughable that people arguing for debt cancellation will scapegoat billionaires, as if it's the billionaires vs everyone else. Cancelling student debt won't bridge the gap between the billionaires and everyone else. It will widen the gap between those who went to expensive private universities and all of us suckers who didn't.
 
Fantasy world.

Let's just print a lot more money and make minimum wage $100 an hour.

Bernie supporters would imagine it's that simple.
 
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