Benson Henderson says B.J. Penn is lightweight GOAT.

These silly arguments turn into lawyering the definition of GOAT. I have it as just what it describes, the greatest fighter and who would likely beat whom if they fought, not who was where at what time, making allowances for where the sport was at what time

You can't really make the argument of title defenses to compare a guy who was 9-0 in the UFC and 25-0 overall before even getting a title shot to a guy whose longest win streak in his entire career was 4 fights and got title shots right away.
 
Penn largely made a career off of reaching beyond his means and losing impressively.

He was the McGregor of his day but with more freedom to have freakshow fights because of the era (though, i think, he was better than McGregor is).
Khabib avoided pretty much every wrestler/grappler unless you count RDA who is really a striker. Tibau has given him a lot of problems. And he has never even considered going to WW where all of them are despite having trouble making weight.
 
Khabib avoided pretty much every wrestler/grappler unless you count RDA who is really a striker. Tibau has given him a lot of problems. And he has never even considered going to WW where all of them are despite having trouble making weight.
I think when it comes to the Tibau fight, we shouldn't forget two things, particularly the latter of these two:
  • Khabib's striking has evolved a lot since the Tibau fight
  • Tibau - though a bit later in his career - popped for EPO, which helps both with cardio and cutting weight, both of which are things, that his huge amount of muscle mass would have had a noticably more drastic effect on, without EPO.
 
I think when it comes to the Tibau fight, we shouldn't forget two things, particularly the latter of these two:
  • Khabib's striking has evolved a lot since the Tibau fight
  • Tibau - though a bit later in his career - popped for EPO, which helps both with cardio and cutting weight, both of which are things, that his huge muscle mass would have a been noticably worse without EPO.

Tibau popped again even after the first time. He popped once and then I think he got caught again while on suspension.
 
Tibau popped again even after the first time. He popped once and then I think he got caught again while on suspension.
Makes it even worse, imo.
Personally, though that is of course speculation at the end of the day, i think that pretty much all PED users start to use them early - i don't buy "i only took [PED] for this fight!" at all.
When it comes to Tibau, he was, as i mentioned, known for two things, when it came to his physicality: tons of muscle and cutting huge amounts of weight.
Both of these things negatively affect cardio and EPO helps both with cutting weight itself, as well as with stamina.
So yeah, i *suspect* Tibau has been on EPO for his entire career.
 
Makes it even worse, imo.
Personally, though that is of course speculation at the end of the day, i think that pretty much all PED users start to use them early - i don't buy "i only took [PED] for this fight!" at all.
When it comes to Tibau, he was, as i mentioned, known for two things, when it came to his physicality: tons of muscle and cutting huge amounts of weight.
Both of these things negatively affect cardio and EPO helps both with cutting weight itself, as well as with stamina.
So yeah, i *suspect* Tibau has been on EPO for his entire career.

I agree.
 
I think when it comes to the Tibau fight, we shouldn't forget two things, particularly the latter of these two:
  • Khabib's striking has evolved a lot since the Tibau fight
  • Tibau - though a bit later in his career - popped for EPO, which helps both with cardio and cutting weight, both of which are things, that his huge amount of muscle mass would have had a noticably more drastic effect on, without EPO.
I agree with all that. All I am trying to say is we do not have a good idea how Khabib would do against elite wrestlers.
 
Oh, really? How many times did he miss weight after cutting "massive"? How many times he was on the verge of death after extreme weight cut?

0. i remember kabob almost dying after a weight cut though and causing his fight to be cancelled
 
“Who cares about my opinion?” he prefaces his take. “But I’m not gonna put Khabib up there for the greatest ever of all time. You can maybe consider him one of the greats for 155, but as far as one of the greatest of all-time in all weight classes, nah. You might have to miss me on that one. That’s saying something. Greatest of all time, I think there are a good 10 or 15 above him. I’m one of those purists who is about longevity as well. Somebody who has been there and competed at the top level. Not somebody who is 35-0 but only has really 10 fights against the top-level guys.

“For me, B.J. Penn is the greatest lightweight of all time. He’s up there for one of the greatest fighters of all weight classes, period. All-time. He did it against the best in the world, at the time they were the best in the world. You can’t complain about he didn’t fight this guy or that guy. At the time that he was fighting, in his heyday, he was fighting the best in the world and he was putting them away. For me, B.J. is up there...”

https://www.mmamania.com/2021/10/12...at-p4p-benson-henderson-bellator-ufc-mma-news
Hespect his opinion but something has to be said about the perspective of former greats who've stayed in the sport too long for their own good.
They can NEVER relate to Khabib, who went out on top, undefeated and on his own terms. Ultimate boss move.
 
Benson has the same amount of Title defences as Khabib and he doesn’t mention himself.

He’s humble and good.

Khabib retired too early. Good chance that Oliveira or Chandler smokes him
One can't help but smile at the way you've convinced yourself of this after years of coping
 
Penn had the talent, skill, technique and athleticism to be the GOAT. Most fighters can see that, regardless of his record. His record looks bad mainly because he fought above his weight class too many times and against beasts every time. No such thing as tune up fights for Penn. Had he stayed at LW, we'd be singing a different tune.

He was 11-3 at LW until the last 2 LW fights while in his 40s. 3 years of his prime were spent on 6 fights above LW before he came back down.

Those 3 years were dominated by Gomi, who Penn completely manhandled before moving up.
 
Although LW GOAT is hard to pinpoint due to the shark tank nature of the division, Bendo's not entirely wrong. Some of you young bucks might not remember BJ in his prime. The dude was an absolute animal who would fight anyone at any weight.

He wasn't a dagestani diva who needed perfect conditions to fight once a year, if that.
You're posting using the very same medium that allows ANYONE with a bandwidth to see how ANYONE from any era in the sport fought.
Eschew nostalgia and you'd see clear as day how much the sport has evolved from the Sean Sherks of the 2000s.
Tough pill to swallow but it is what it is.
 
Penn Legendary streak against Pulver, Stevenson and Sherk is still the best in LW history.

Lol. Stevenson. What a joke. Only easily dispatched of that nobody, Tibau, then completely dominated that bum, Nate.

If the top guys from Khabib's and McGregor's time fought those two guys, they wouldn't have any issues. Especially since they'd be long out of their primes by then.
 
I do agree that khabib would beat bj but that doesn't mean his career was better . Khabib stayed in his safe lane.
How the fuck is BJ's career better? Even Malcolm Tucker would balk trying to spin that one
 
Fighting anyone at any weight doesn't make you a divisional GOAT

BJs career record at LW is 11-5. If he retired after Nick beat him it's 11-2. Khabib is 13-0 just in UFCs LW division. His title fight victims would beat all of BJs title fight victims. Sport evolves. BJ was the best of the pioneer Lightweights. Prime Khabib beats every other LW that's competed until the sport evolves again after another 10ish years.
 
Khabib avoided pretty much every wrestler/grappler unless you count RDA who is really a striker. Tibau has given him a lot of problems. And he has never even considered going to WW where all of them are despite having trouble making weight


1st, LOL at you classifying RDA as more of a striker than a grappler. His grappling at LW is just as elite as his striking. Outside of Khabib, he only had problems with wrestlers at WW--never at LW--and even there he took Colby to the limit (Colby struggled against RDA much worse than Khabib did).

2nd, Khabib didn't "avoid" other wrestlers/grapplers in the division. He either beat them (Tibau, RDA), or said grapplers couldn't hack it at the top against the same strikers who were supposedly vulnerable to that style (Kevin Lee, Gillespie, etc.).
 
Depends on what makes a goat of a division. If it's beating quality opposition at the weight class the goat is Khabib no arguments. If the criteria is about being a pioneer and winning fights out of the weight class (and making the division look good in process) then it's BJ.
 
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