Ben Askren understands the power of the mounted Darce!

Discussion in 'Grappling Technique' started by Drew Foster, Oct 16, 2010.

  1. Drew Foster

    Drew Foster Silver Belt

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    Cool shit. Very cool how he uses the cradle to set up the Darce. Also, most people that step over will often really dump and control their opponent before going to mount, but Askren seems to just go straight for it. Really cool finish. Especially how he kind of loses his grip from the mount and has to re-secure it.

     
  2. Neuro

    Neuro Purple Belt

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    Oh shit dude. I'm loving all these video posts lately-- nice one Drew.
     
  3. Neuro

    Neuro Purple Belt

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    That Darce looked so tight, the leverage was so greatly increased when he got the leg across and moved to mount. It really had a flow style similar to Marcelo, or at least I thought so.

    Btw, Askren went on to win this whole tourney, right? Beating Volkmann, I think
     
  4. Drew Foster

    Drew Foster Silver Belt

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    Man I have no idea. I looked at a couple Askren vids after seeing the one with Shields and the first one I saw had a mounted Brabo finish so I had to throw it up. Notice how he was also able to use his right thigh to drive into the trapped arm and shoulder? That's what Rafa Mendes did to Justin Rader only he had an Anaconda not a Darce.
     
  5. Neuro

    Neuro Purple Belt

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    That's exactly what I was gonna comment on. The right thigh allows tons more leverage to be place on the Darce-ing forearm, as it's pulled up, yeah? That's what it looks like here. I'm gonna re-read your meaty posts hahaha.

    His flow from half-guard to turtle top to the D'arce and to mount was just so smooth and sick-- he's got such a light but firm base.
     
  6. redaxe

    redaxe Silver Belt

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    Oh, sweet. I was wondering if it was possible to finish a d'arce against a turtled opponent--that's how it's done. That's cool how he blocks the arm with his left leg first and then steps over to mount with the right leg.
     
  7. Drew Foster

    Drew Foster Silver Belt

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    Yes, he definitely did a different setup for the step-over Darce than the ones we've seen by Cobrinha, Hall, Lovato Jr., Sim Go, etc. I'm gonna try it Monday.

    @BallerBrawller, Askren may not have used any thigh squeeze at all. It's impossible to tell from video. I'm just saying that when you post the foot instead of dropping all the way to both knees you do have that option. The forearm pressure kinda stays the same, but you have your shoulder/chest AND your thigh squeezing on their trapped arm and shoulder. If that makes any sense? Dropping to both knees is perfectly fine too, because either way you are defeating their ability to get their hips/legs underneath your weight to sweep or re-guard you during the choke. That's why I'm also begging to prefer the Glover/Marce/back/side/walk/hip-in Darce over the sprawl top-side Darce. They cannot get their weight under you on that one either, and people say the choke is tighter. Glover has even said he's hurt some people's necks by going into the choke too fast. It's still a balancing act though, because the clock-in Darce can allow your opponent to try and outrun you if you can't keep them on their hip. If they have good base and get to their knees, you can still finish them, but it turns into a race where you have to outrun each other.
     
  8. 206warrior

    206warrior Purple Belt

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    Thats sick, what tournament is that?
     
  9. Sloth

    Sloth Brown Belt

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    Wow, that was really slick! I'm starting to like the mounted Brabo more after the discussions here and watching that video, seems like it kills the most common escapes for the choke.
     
  10. Porter

    Porter Captain Obvious

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    Beautiful!
     
  11. Drew Foster

    Drew Foster Silver Belt

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    It really does kill almost every escape man. I've never not finished someone if I have a deep grip and step over. What was crazy about how Ryan Hall did it was that he did not have to be in a position to even step over to get to the mount. He could set it up from the baseball slide clock-in setup and granby or backroll across his shoulders to end up mounted/posted.

    I am surprised it isn't done more, as once you do it, it just starts to not make sense to finish any other way if you can help it. I still sometimes do the 3-tree branch Darce: Normal top side-finish, if they go to their knees baseball slide through for the Glover finish, but if they try to get their back flat step over to mount. If I start the normal top-side finish and they don't seem to be escaping in either direction I'll step-over just for the practice and muscle memory. It also lets me play with nuances of posting, leg pressure, both knees, the best way to squeeze with my head posted vs. not posted, side crunches, etc. Once you start stepping over you'll notice a ton of different ways to squeeze the choke, and to place your legs/hips/knees.

    When you say finish against a turtled opponent do you mean finishing without gable gripping them onto their back/side to finish? If that's NOT what you meant, then there are easier ways to get the choke than what Askren did. What he did was pretty advanced. The main two ways I attack from the turtle, regardless of how I finish are:


    Just in case. But I'm assuming you know that set-up and finish from the turtle.

    The other finish would be.

    The pull to the hip is SO important. There are dozens of videos available on youtube where people are not able to finish the back/side finish because their opponent manages to stay on both knees and they can outrun the choke. This is a good example by my friend John "Baegls" Telford who is great at the Darce/Brabo. Notice him dumping his opponent onto their hip first. The guy is trying to outrun the choke but he has no base, so "Bagels" can easily clock-in to finish:

     
  12. Drew Foster

    Drew Foster Silver Belt

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    As always, whether this thread has 10 more replies or zero, just to spread this as much as possible, I'm going to post up the same 3 videos I always do when talking about this:

    First one I ever saw. Don't know if Cobrinha is squeezing with the right thigh, but it's where I got the idea from: 5:25


    The first time most people online saw it if they hadn't been taught it in the gym: 1:10


    After I asked Ryan about it he pointed me to another time he did it that was also recorded on video. The really cool thing about this one is that in his match with Jeff Glover at Abu Dhabi he goes for this exact set-up and finish but Glover scrambles away. Anyways, here's the move at 2:30


    EDIT:

    Here's Sim Go running through that 3-tree branch Darce that I was talking about, only in a different order. And instead of finishing from the mount, he decides to kind of sit back and use the position as a really cool way to finish with a Triangle: The action heats up at 2:20. The match itself starts at 1:15.
     
  13. Porter

    Porter Captain Obvious

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    Good information
     
  14. Drew Foster

    Drew Foster Silver Belt

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  15. cenix

    cenix Orange Belt

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    darce is awesome and the opportunity to catch it is common, but i don't see why this isn't used more as a finishing submission in say, ufc. or is it, and i haven't seen them being done?
     
  16. Drew Foster

    Drew Foster Silver Belt

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    There have actually been a good amount of Darces in MMA, but in the UFC there have been 3.

    Kendall Grove, Terry Etim, and Paulo Thiago have all won with Darce chokes. Grove and Thiago put their opponents to sleep. Johny Hendricks had an awesome one before he got to the UFC. Milton Vieira has two or three, Rani Yahya has one or two, etc.

    I agree that it's surprising we still aren't seeing more, because when moves get big in submission grappling and BJJ it typically takes MMA 2-3 years to start catching on so we are at least starting to see a lot of attempts. Matt Brown almost finished Chris Lytle with one very recently. Dustin Hazelett used a Darce to anaconda transition to submit someone. Joe Stevenson had a tight Darce from the bottom on George Sotiropolous but George got a knee-on-belly and popped his head out.

    But even if we start seeing 2-3 a year on UFC cards, that's a lot. The main four MMA subs are armbars, RNCs, guillotines, and triangles. After that is the Kimura and arm triangle. Then you have you anacondas, Darces, and heelhooks.

    The anaconda choke is actually more popular in MMA which is kind of odd considering it's pretty damn rare in sub-grappling/BJJ, although Rafael Mendes' success with it may change that.

    There are tons of opportunities, especially for good wrestlers, to use head-and-arm chokes but they just choose not to. If you really start paying attention you can see guys think about or actually move their bodies and arms to set up Darces, Peruvians, anacondas, and even arm triangles pretty often and then bail on them right as they start to move for them. It's like this switch goes on and tells them not to risk it. A good example is when Sonnen had a great arm triangle in round 5 against Silva, but he bailed as soon as he went for it.

    I would never expect to see more than 3-4 Darces a year in the UFC (tops) unless a main event level fighter wins a really major fight with one. That type of stuff can change things.
     
  17. Qtip inspector

    Qtip inspector Blue Belt

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    The darce is awesome. Alot of good info here. I always wondered why we dont see it more in mma too. Maybe the gloves make it harder to slide in deep? Dunno
     
  18. cenix

    cenix Orange Belt

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    man, that was an awesome commentary. i can see clearly how you love ufc/mma and the darce! but yeah, i've tried it a few times rolling myself, but just couldn't finish them up to get a tap. i'll probably try to start committing myself to try them out more, good or bad because it's plain and simple and is an awesome move.
     
  19. KahleyTriangles

    KahleyTriangles Blue Belt

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    Good info Drew! I love the darce as well. Gonna have to try the mounted variation!
     
  20. Senshi

    Senshi Brown Belt

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    that was beautifully executed. set up was great. i love askren and he really brings a nice and unique style of grappling to the mats
     

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