Beginner: Escapes versus Submissions

If the person is bigger and better than you, then do your best to maintain or achieve a dominant position. Don't "Let" them pass your guard.

If someone knows less than you or is a lot smaller then work on areas you're not so strong in. Being as you're a beginner ( like me ) you'll spend most of your time trying your best but still getting dominated.

Reminds me of class on Wednesday. I rolled with someone and caught them in a triangle. Seems that maybe I know a little more than him I guess. So second round I don't go crazy with my guard and he gets around to side control. Funny thing was he had no idea what to do from there. He even said " Sorry, i'm not trying to stall or anything! " I told him it was all good cause I was catching a breather anyways. So I guess it does help to know some subs as well.
 
Read Saulo's book, the best BJJ book ever. The first things he thinks people should learn are surviving and escaping. I totally agree and wish that's what I did. What makes jiu-jitsu special is not its submissions but its efficient way of moving. Surviving and getting out of bad positions is what makes jiu-jitsu so strong. When you can do that, you have the options to get to better positions and put them away.

I disagree with that mentality anyway, but let me also emphasize that there is a difference between surviving and escaping.
 
Position over submission I always say, you can win matches without tapping someone, but you will always lose matches if you get dominated by positioning...

Exactly what i was thinking. Your submissions can be used in dominant or neutral positions where you can win in other ways, but if you're in a bad position, you're gonna need to get out before you can do anything else, especially when you're just beginning.
 
but a beginner gets a lot more chances to escape than sub someone. and white belts are not exactly reverse engineers

if a beginner is against another beginner, chances are, they both have no clue what they are doing. learn the subs and eventually, as you progress, you will learn escapes.
 
I agree completely.

Being able to escape from an established dominant position with a high success rate is more a sign of a massive skill differential rather than good technique. Higher level guys will not let you escape their dominant positions often or easily. That's why we call those positions dominant in the first place.

What is the difference between having a skill differential and having better technique?

And how do you think one should go about achieving a "massive skill differential"?
 
if a beginner is against another beginner, chances are, they both have no clue what they are doing. learn the subs and eventually, as you progress, you will learn escapes.

right if a beginner is against another beginner.

but usually they will not do that.

meaning even if you went to a white belt class, if you are brand new you will get put against say a 3 stripe belt or whatever.

having 2 complete noobs against each other is just bad.
 
right if a beginner is against another beginner.

but usually they will not do that.

meaning even if you went to a white belt class, if you are brand new you will get put against say a 3 stripe belt or whatever.

having 2 complete noobs against each other is just bad.

otherwise known as a "gatekeeper" or "probationary blue belt" :icon_chee
 
What is the difference between having a skill differential and having better technique?

And how do you think one should go about achieving a "massive skill differential"?

By massive skill differential, I mean overall understanding of grappling. Think of like a black belt versus a white belt for an example.

The only real way to establish that much of a gap is mat time. But since at that point you will also be competing against guys of your own skill, you can't rely on having such an advantage in a match.

The point is that you should not assume that you are massively more skilled than your opponent because that is not typically the case in meaningful matches. Therefore, you should not be relying on escapes very often. There is a reason why there are almost no successful competitors who rely heavily on escapes. If you have to attempt the escape in the first place, you are already dangerously close to losing.
 
Also just to clarify above:

For a technique to be an all around good technique to rely on, it needs to be effective against opponents of similar skill. If a technique requires your opponent to be much less skilled than you for it to succeed, then it's not something you want to be primarily relying on as a strategy.

If I were to mount Rickson, he would probably be able to escape my mount pretty easily. But that has more to do with the fact that since he is Rickson, he is so much better than me that he can basically do whatever he wants.

Now let's say Roger mounts Rickson. Do you think Rickson will still be escaping his mount? It's very unlikely that Rickson will be able to escape here before he is submitted. There is probably some chance of that, but it is a very bad position for Rickson so all things considered, Roger will finish him here.

Simply put, even if you have the most efficient escape possible, it still doesn't rise to the level of a good technique to rely on because the position is already so bad in and of itself that having to fight from at all is already losing. They are still important to know in the event that you find yourself there despite your best efforts, but they are definitely techniques of last resort.
 
By massive skill differential, I mean overall understanding of grappling. Think of like a black belt versus a white belt for an example.

The only real way to establish that much of a gap is mat time. But since at that point you will also be competing against guys of your own skill, you can't rely on having such an advantage in a match.

The point is that you should not assume that you are massively more skilled than your opponent because that is not typically the case in meaningful matches. Therefore, you should not be relying on escapes very often. There is a reason why there are almost no successful competitors who rely heavily on escapes. If you have to attempt the escape in the first place, you are already dangerously close to losing.

Roger Gracie comes to mind. I remember reading an article in Graciemag about how his superb escapes are the real reason why he is so good, and why no one has tapped him in a match since he was a blue belt. He's been taken down and put in bad positions and guys like Xande have attempted submissions on him, but he always gets out.

A skill differential is the result of practice. Don't put the cart before the horse. The reason why a black belt can easily escape the mount of a blue belt (and not vice versa) is not because he is a black belt, it is because he has practiced his escapes for many more repetitions.

It is entirely possible to have effective, high-percentage escapes that work against opponents who are the same belt level as you or even higher. You just have to practice them more.

And in no way am I implying that escaping is an ideal strategy that you rely on to win a match. It doesn't take many brain cells to realize that the best strategy is either takedown, pass guard, mount, submit or pull guard, submit. Escapes are what save your ass when your opponent is already in the process of doing that to you. They're the difference between almost losing and actually losing.

Your logic is strange to me because you're basically saying "don't practice your escapes because your escapes won't work because you aren't any better at them than your opponent is at holding a dominant position."

Well how do you expect your escapes to get good if you don't practice them?

Keep in mind that the context here is a beginner asking whether he should focus on practicing escapes or focus on something else like submissions.

And as for not being able to assume a skill advantage over your opponent, well, there is no such thing as two competitors of exactly equal skill across the board. If you're that white belt who has blue belt-level escapes because you practiced them more, then you will have a much better chance of winning against your white belt opponents because they cannot hold you down or submit you. And if you don't have a skill advantage, what is left? Strategy and luck. It's almost impossible to strategize against an opponent unless you've seen him grapple before, and you can't control luck.
 
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By strong guard, do you mean having a mobile guard with the ability to recover at will? I think this what you mean, but I would like clarification/elaboration on your opinion. Thanks!

I mean being able to dictate the course of the fight from your guard and being able to defend yourself from strikes. Recovering guard, playing strong half guard to prevent passes and get to top and having an open guard.

I mean I just think that the guard (Closed, Open, Half,) is the most important thing in jiu jitsu. If you cannot use these effectively, you cannot survive long enough to use anything else.
 
P.S.: Balto, I think I've argued about this with you before, when we were discussing Helio style vs. Carlson style jiu-jitsu philosophy.

In a way, the argument reminds me of this:

billyshampooconditioner.png


"Shampoo is better. I go on first and clean the hair."
"Conditioner is better. I leave the hair silky and smooth."
"Oh, really, fool?!"
"Really!!"
[Makes shampoo bottle fight conditioner bottle]
[Notices gold swan on edge of tub]
"Stop looking at me, swan!"
 
Roger Gracie comes to mind. I remember reading an article in Graciemag about how his superb escapes are the real reason why he is so good, and why no one has tapped him in a match since he was a blue belt. He's been taken down and put in bad positions and guys like Xande have attempted submissions on him, but he always gets out.

A skill differential is the result of practice. Don't put the cart before the horse. The reason why a black belt can easily escape the mount of a blue belt (and not vice versa) is not because he is a black belt, it is because he has practiced his escapes for many more repetitions.

It is entirely possible to have effective, high-percentage escapes that work against opponents who are the same belt level as you or even higher. You just have to practice them more.

And in no way am I implying that escaping is an ideal strategy that you rely on to win a match. It doesn't take many brain cells to realize that the best strategy is either takedown, pass guard, mount, submit or pull guard, submit. Escapes are what save your ass when your opponent is already in the process of doing that to you. They're the difference between almost losing and actually losing.

Your logic is strange to me because you're basically saying "don't practice your escapes because your escapes won't work because you aren't any better at them than your opponent is at holding a dominant position."

Well how do you expect your escapes to get good if you don't practice them?

There is no such thing as two competitors of exactly equal skill across the board. If you're that white belt who has blue belt-level escapes because you practiced them more, then you will have a much better chance of winning against your white belt opponents because they cannot hold you down or submit you.

Roger does not use that many escapes in his recent matches. I mean in the last Mundials, he was not even scored on. Therefore, he didn't have to escape from a dominant position even one time. In this year's Mundials, I think he gave up a takedown or something in a single match. But still he was not escaping from dominant positions.

I remember Roger pulling off some crazy escapes in the past, but Roger was not nearly as dominant back then. Now that he has ditched the escaping strategy and not even getting scored on, he has really gotten to the next level.

It is not possible to have high percentage escapes from dominant positions against guys who are the same skill as you. The only time that happens is when they are horrible at top game compared to your escapes, and that indicates a big skill gap. You might still get out, but if you can easily and consistently escape from an established mount, an established side control, back control with the hooks, etc., you are just fighting a crappy opponent.

Fighting from an inferior position is like giving your opponent a head start in a race. If you're Usain Bolt and you're racing me, you probably could give me a head start and still win. But when it's the Olympics, there is no room to give anybody even a little head start because you need every edge you can.

Your reasoning is that if you practice enough, you can eventually get so good that you can overcome the head start you gave your opponent. My reasoning is that at higher levels, it's not that realistic to expect that you can be that dominant over your opponents. The truth is that a lot of higher level matches end up being very close and won by an advantage or something. People like to imagine that if they work hard enough, they will develop into some sort of god who can consistently escape from bad positions. Yet for the vast majority of people, that will never happen. Maybe Roger is at that level, but no other top black belt in competition today is, let alone regular people.

I'm not saying that you should not train escapes. I am saying that it is much more productive to focus your training on preventing the bad positions in the first place than escaping from them once they are established. Being dominant from the top and having an impassable guard pay off way more in competition than having great escapes.
 
P.S.: Balto, I think I've argued about this with you before, when we were discussing Helio style vs. Carlson style jiu-jitsu philosophy.

In a way, the argument reminds me of this:

billyshampooconditioner.png


"Shampoo is better. I go on first and clean the hair."
"Conditioner is better. I leave the hair silky and smooth."
"Oh, really, fool?!"
"Really!!"
[Makes shampoo bottle fight conditioner bottle]
[Notices gold swan on edge of tub]
"Stop looking at me, swan!"

It is somewhat of a philosophy thing, but I think it costs a lot of people competition matches when they don't even realize it.

There are two things I've noticed that are common in many BJJ schools that cause a lack of success in competition:

The first is feeling comfortable from inferior positions like side control, mount, or the back. In reality, getting put in these positions usually means you are going to lose the match, so you need to fight as hard as you can to prevent being put there. If you do get there, you need to get out ASAP before three seconds to avoid the points. If you can't do that, you can try to escape quickly and reverse the match, but the majority of the time you will lose anyway. There does seem to be a common style that involves curling up and conserving as much energy as possible while waiting for the best opportunity to execute a technical escape. Most people relying on this "good defense" in competition find that the opportunity never really comes up, and even when it does, it's not enough to change the course of the match.

The second thing that drives me crazy is people who easily concede top guard position for bottom guard position. This is a terrible habit that kills you in competition. Rather than fighting hard not to get swept, people will roll over and establish their favorite guard instead. Every time you do that, the other guy scores 2 points. It doesn't take too many of those before you're hopelessly behind.

For some reason, these two habits are really common in BJJ schools. I used to do these things myself too before I moved to a place with more serious competition. I was getting killed at first and couldn't figure out why. Once I realized these two things, I went from a hopefully win my first match guy to a probably going to win the whole division guy. It really does make a difference when you stop giving up all kinds of little edges to your opponent.
 
i would question the skill level of your training partners if you are a beginner and need to ALLOW yourself to be put into a compromising position. (side control, mount, back.)

if you're training with skilled BJJ players, i don't think you're going to have much of a choice. when i started BJJ, i was on my back 80% of the time. turtled 15% of the time and 5% of the time i was on top just because my partner wanted to practice his sweeps.

in terms of submission vs position/escapes, i'd say that learning escapes and positional dominance is much more important during your first few years.

honestly, i think the most important thing for a beginner to learn is to guard defense. forget all that other stuff. just learn to defend the guard pass. keep people in your guard. if they cant pass your guard, they cant submit you.

invariably, your guard will be passed. and then you learn to regain your guard from half and from side control and from mount. side conrol is still a pain in the ass for me. once all that falls together, then you start feeling comfortable on your back and then you work on sweeps and subs from the back and your top game.
 
I am saying that it is much more productive to focus your training on preventing the bad positions in the first place than escaping from them once they are established. Being dominant from the top and having an impassable guard pay off way more in competition than having great escapes.

I mostly agree with this but a good guard takes a long time to develop, and you don't really get to practice it until you've learned your escapes. You tell a noob to work on his guard, so he pulls guard, gets passed immediately, and spends the rest of the time struggling to escape until he gets submitted, then rinse and repeat. As a beginner you have to learn to escape before you can defend guard, just like you have to learn to crawl before you can run.

If the question was how to win competitions I would agree with your answers 100%. But we're not talking about how to win competitions, we're talking about what a brand new beginner should focus on in training, and the correct answer is escapes first.

But I do agree with you in that once you have fundamental escape skills and are able to move on to working on your guard retention, sweeps, passing, and submissions, you should. And at that point you don't necessarily have to put yourself in bad positions on purpose just to practice escaping like the TS is doing, as long as you have higher-level training partners who are going to put you in bad positions anyway.

But on the other hand, if you're Roger (or just the best grappler at your gym), you have to do that because otherwise you'll never get to practice your escapes.
 
i would question the skill level of your training partners if you are a beginner and need to ALLOW yourself to be put into a compromising position. (side control, mount, back.)

if you're training with skilled BJJ players, i don't think you're going to have much of a choice. when i started BJJ, i was on my back 80% of the time. turtled 15% of the time and 5% of the time i was on top just because my partner wanted to practice his sweeps.

in terms of submission vs position/escapes, i'd say that learning escapes and positional dominance is much more important during your first few years.

honestly, i think the most important thing for a beginner to learn is to guard defense. forget all that other stuff. just learn to defend the guard pass. keep people in your guard. if they cant pass your guard, they cant submit you.

invariably, your guard will be passed. and then you learn to regain your guard from half and from side control and from mount. side conrol is still a pain in the ass for me. once all that falls together, then you start feeling comfortable on your back and then you work on sweeps and subs from the back and your top game.

I agree with this except for the bold part--to most beginners, guard = closed guard, and "keep people in your guard" means "squeeze your legs with all your might to hold your opponent in your closed guard." That's actually counterproductive to learning BJJ.
 
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oh i mean open, closed, butterfly, DLR, whatever. any position where your opponent isnt on one side of both your legs. i've rolled with blackbelts that will keep you from passing just using their legs. and if you do pass, they regain their guard immediately. its crazy.
 
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