Beginner: Escapes versus Submissions

Discussion in 'Grappling Technique' started by 879lexus, Aug 20, 2010.

  1. 879lexus

    879lexus Blue Belt

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    What do you think is most important for a begineer to practice?

    a) Submissions (is always fun to learn and to tap people out),

    b) escapes seem vital to me to perfect because I always find myself in the worst positions with now way out. And from those positions I always get submitted.

    So for me, instead of trying to submit the guy while rolling, I try to get in the worst positions and just practicing escapes. For instance, I get mounted or side controlled, or let the person get my back and get his hooks in and protect my neck. I find when and if I do escape or sweep the guy, then and only then I will try to submit.

    Only if I escape a bad position, I go for the submission. It works for me.
     
  2. bjornvil

    bjornvil Blue Belt

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    Both! But put more emphasis on escapes.

    I think you can't really grasp the escape technique without at least knowing the submission and how the mechanics of it work.
     
  3. Galahad

    Galahad Orange Belt

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    I think you're retarded.

    If you're a beginner you're going to be in those positions A LOT anyways.

    Try practicing not getting your guard passed while attempting a sub/sweep and guard retention. You're going to mess up horribly while doing those and end up in bad positions, then you can practice your escapes.
     
  4. Red Harvest

    Red Harvest Orange Belt

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    ^ That was uncalled for.

    Both is the answer. Submissions will come but you need to be able to put yourself in a position to get them. So If I had to place emphasis on one moreso than the other I would say escapes.
     
  5. Rws177die

    Rws177die Yellow Belt

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    I wouldn't let people pass your guard if you are just starting. My first 3-6 months were all about survival and not getting tapped, then I nautrally transtioned to getting dominate postions and submitting people.
     
  6. lethalazn

    lethalazn Purple Belt

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    preferably behind you, with both hooks sunk in
    Preventing position is first, at least for me that's when BJJ started making sense
     
  7. Balto

    Balto Silver Belt

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    It's better to practice not even getting in a bad position in the first place.

    Since you're new, that should be a tough enough goal for you anyway. Instead of putting yourself in bad positions on purpose, try fighting to establish good position right away. You'll probably end up in plenty of bad positions regardless since you are a beginner, but at least you can practice doing the right thing somewhat.

    Escapes are worst case scenario moves. Ideally, it should be your opponent attempting the escapes, not you. Don't purposefully do things incorrectly like giving up your back just to work on escapes. Good people are going to take your back anyway whether you give it up on purpose or not; then you will get a chance to practice your escapes because you will have no other choice.
     
  8. Mat Nemesis**

    Mat Nemesis** Green Belt

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    positioning, posture, guard retention and guard passing.

    then escapes and subs (could teach sub and escape during same class)

    but unfortunately, even in beginner classes you spend to much time on subs and not enough on other stuff i mentioned.
     
  9. Uchi Mata

    Uchi Mata Preaching the gospel of heel hooks and left kicks

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    Guard passing and positional domination on offense, escapes on defense. One of the most satisfying moments I had in BJJ was when I got good enough at defense to prevent anyone but the black belts from tapping me. Not that I liked being on the bottom, but seeing purples shakes their heads because they COULD NOT finish me was great. Subs come in time, they're really hard, after 5 years of BJJ I can usually only consistently finish from the back, with the occasional armbar from the mount. It's just hard to submit people and retain your position.
     
  10. pailum117

    pailum117 Blue Belt

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    I used to make that same mistake; I thought since escaping was so crucial I should just let people get superior position. Not only did I let them get the position, I let them set up grips do whatever they wanted until it was almost impossible to escape. This was so stupid. Your focus should be 100% on defense, that means building such a strong guard that you can't be passed, then have such strong escapes you still have a chance if they do.

    I think there is alot of misconception surrounding this area of jiu jitsu. The whole escaping against a bigger, stronger opponent only works if the opponent knows nothing (or SIGNIFICANTLY LESS THAN YOU) about jiu jitsu. I for instance am a blue belt and it's only on the new white belts that I can really impose whatever game I want, against people my rank and better I have to really work and catch them in transition. Most of my sweeps, passes, subs all come when my opponent is trying the opposite.

    90% OF YOUR SUCCESS IN JIU JITSU WILL BE FOUND IN THE TRANSITION PERIODS.
     
  11. Balto

    Balto Silver Belt

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    I agree completely.

    Being able to escape from an established dominant position with a high success rate is more a sign of a massive skill differential rather than good technique. Higher level guys will not let you escape their dominant positions often or easily. That's why we call those positions dominant in the first place.
     
  12. sleeps anywhere

    sleeps anywhere Yellow Belt

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    By strong guard, do you mean having a mobile guard with the ability to recover at will? I think this what you mean, but I would like clarification/elaboration on your opinion. Thanks!
     
  13. BassAckwards

    BassAckwards Brown Belt

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    for beginners, i feel that learning the submissions is more important than escapes. once you've perfected your subs, in theory, you would have also understood the mechanics and positioning of the subs. once you understand those, you should know how to escape. of course, by the time you understand all of those things, you shouldnt be a beginner.
     
  14. lethalazn

    lethalazn Purple Belt

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    Yes....in theory...

    If you teach two people an armbar from mount, there's always a chance that one guy will realize that means you shouldn't extend your arms when mounted (without ever being explicitly taught) and another guy who will never realize that and keep doing it even after being explicitly told not to hyperextend his arms

    Being able to read between the lines doesn't quite apply for everyone
     
  15. Shemhazai

    Shemhazai Black Belt

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    I agree 100 % with what's been said about not giving up dominant positions. At the moment I'm really trying to boost my guard pass defense and working on countering all of the specific passes both early and late. "An ounce of prevention beats a pound of cure" has to be one of the most important axioms in BJJ by far.
     
  16. RGVBadBoy

    RGVBadBoy Blue Belt

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    Position over submission I always say, you can win matches without tapping someone, but you will always lose matches if you get dominated by positioning...
     
  17. johnkreese

    johnkreese Brown Belt

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    I understand what you're saying -- play your game as best as you can, and don't get into a habit of letting people pass, get rips on you and get you in a bad position... but the one flaw in that is, some people have great guards, they never get passed, but when they're passed by someone better than them, they have no technique or skill to regain position. I think the answer is to not concede a position when not training some kind of situational excercise(ie: starting in side control, etc).
     
  18. Mat Nemesis**

    Mat Nemesis** Green Belt

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    but a beginner gets a lot more chances to escape than sub someone. and white belts are not exactly reverse engineers
     
  19. redaxe

    redaxe Silver Belt

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    both but more emphasis on learning effective, technical escapes. you never get to practice your armbars if you're always in bottom mount.
     
  20. spelingmastir

    spelingmastir White Belt

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    Read Saulo's book, the best BJJ book ever. The first things he thinks people should learn are surviving and escaping. I totally agree and wish that's what I did. What makes jiu-jitsu special is not its submissions but its efficient way of moving. Surviving and getting out of bad positions is what makes jiu-jitsu so strong. When you can do that, you have the options to get to better positions and put them away.
     

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