Bare Knuckle technique

[JasonJ]

I was researching another topic and I came upon this piece of information: http://www.savateaustralia.com/Savate Essays/Bare-Knuckles to Modern Boxing.htm

Basically it describes how boxing has evolved over the centuries from a bare fisted contest to what it is today. After reading the article, it occurs to me; would MMA fighters be better served to train in a more traditional bare knuckle punching style as opposed to a boxing style?

The problem is, today's boxing style is based around the 8 to 20 ounce gloves. These big gloves remove much of the worry of hand breaks, and they provide extra defense. The 4 ounce gloves provide only a little protection from the hand breaks, and they don't provide the "cover up" defense at all.

It seems like most power punchers in MMA (and some we wouldn't really consider power punchers) wind up breaking their hands. Keep in mind that in England men fought with bare fists for hundreds of years. They developed their manner of striking to minimize chance for breaking a hand.

Here is a modern boxing punch:

Here is a bareknuckle punch used by pugalists in the 1800s:

In early boxing throws were also allowed, so the defense used had to take into account the danger of being taken down by dangerous throws.

All in all, it sounds to me as though the bare knuckle styles might be better suited to today's MMA.

Opinions?

 

[GlahHahn]

Intresting read thanks for the link.

 

[JasonJ]

No problem. This was my first thread!

 

[Nasiello]

well, I guess the reason they train that way is because it's much easier to find a trainer who's well versed in modern boxing than old school bare knuckles?

 

[JasonJ]

well, I guess the reason they train that way is because it's much easier to find a trainer who's well versed in modern boxing than old school bare knuckles?

That's true, but there are instructors out there. I just wondered if anyone had heard anything about it? Surely someone in MMA has thought about this. But MMA is so young, maybe they havn't.

 

[Yamato-Takeru]

In his Big DVD's of combat, Bas Rutten tells you to NOT twist your arm/hand when you're punching, leaving your fist in a vertical position, very similar at the one in the second photograph. Doesn't says anything about old school boxing though.
Those DVD's are great, by the way.
That was a good read, thanks for the link.

 

[JasonJ]

In his Big DVD's of combat, Bas Rutten tells you to NOT twist your arm/hand when you're punching, leaving your fist in a vertical position, very similar at the one in the second photograph. Doesn't says anything about old school boxing though.
Those DVD's are great, by the way.
That was a good read, thanks for the link.

Aha, well then it sounds like at least Bas thought about this topic. Maybe someone could do an "Ask the fighters about it?"

 

[CHOKER28]

most breaks accure when the wrist is out of enlinment

 

[JasonJ]

most breaks accure when the wrist is out of enlinment

Did you read the article? No one is suggesting putting the wrist anything but straight. Just putting the hand verticle so the force is spread more evenly over the punchers knuckles.

 

[CowboyPete]

In his Big DVD's of combat, Bas Rutten tells you to NOT twist your arm/hand when you're punching, leaving your fist in a vertical position, very similar at the one in the second photograph. Doesn't says anything about old school boxing though.
Those DVD's are great, by the way.
That was a good read, thanks for the link.

I think you're misquoting Rutten. Doesn't he say that it doesn't matter if you turn your fist or not? Either way, I disagree. The extra power you get from the "cyclone" snap at the end of the punch is well worth it. Strengthen your grip and smooth out your form and you won't have any wrist alignment problems.

 

[Jaxx]

I am very uneasy about punching with the vertical fist, why deliberatly punch with some of the weakest bones in your hand?

I punch horizontal with the big two knuckles and have had no problems, i know guys who broke their hands in a street fight and its always the 3rd and 4th metacarple(sp) thats gets fucked up.

 

[ballie]

I find some things strange

for example why would a vertical fist help you against fracture? It doesn't seem right, it looks to me like you enlarge the chance to hit with the 3rd and 4th knuckle and breake them easier..about the guard: if you keep your hand so far away, you will have much less reaction tim and make it harder to block in time, at the same time you aren't protectetd against hooks, highkicks, karatechops:icon_chee etc...

I think boxing evolved to a technically better sport, I think you can brake your hand anyway fighting without protection and alot is a question of proper technique and conditioning, the other part is just the risk that can't be excluded.

 

[krait]

I think you're misquoting Rutten. Doesn't he say that it doesn't matter if you turn your fist or not? Either way, I disagree. The extra power you get from the "cyclone" snap at the end of the punch is well worth it. Strengthen your grip and smooth out your form and you won't have any wrist alignment problems.

He kinda is. Bas says for a straight punch that you don't have to turn the hand over. It does not apply to all punches.The foot work is a little different also for the straight with the hand vertical in JKD,which is how it taught(comes from Gung Fu I believe and no thats not a typo.). Personally once you get the foot work down I like the vertical hand position better. I can slip more punches between the guard than when turning my hand over. When turning the hand over my foream will hit theirs if they are covering up. But with the hand vertical its a straight line and will slip through more times. Now all of this only applies to the straight punch only.

 

[krait]

I am very uneasy about punching with the vertical fist, why deliberatly punch with some of the weakest bones in your hand?

I punch horizontal with the big two knuckles and have had no problems, i know guys who broke their hands in a street fight and its always the 3rd and 4th metacarple(sp) thats gets fucked up.

You actually still use the two big knuckles. That part doesn't change.

 

[Goth_Judoka]

Hey, nice read.

 

[Lui Hailong]

What's funny is, Jack Dempsey was a big advocate of punching with the vertical fist. I think he was taught by some guys from the bareknuckle days, which could have something to do with it.

He also said to punch with the last three knuckles, claiming that punching with the 1st two would lead to fracture. His reasoning? Most of the force would land on the one, big knuckle since it sticks out. Also, your wrist is more likely to bend given that you're not landing along the "power line" (the "power line" runs through the pinky knuckle). Try pressing your fist against the wall, first with the last 3, then with the first 2 knuckles to get a feel for this concept.

In any case, I'd prefer to just use palm strikes in a bareknuckle situation. You retain 99% of the power in your hooks (actually, I learned to throw the hook w/ an open palm first before I learned it the boxing way due to my background in wushu). Straight punches aren't as effective, but you run no chance of breaking your hand.

 

[JasonJ]

about the guard: if you keep your hand so far away, you will have much less reaction tim and make it harder to block in time, at the same time you aren't protectetd against hooks, highkicks, karatechops:icon_chee etc....

They didn't just keep the guard so far away, they kept the fighter further away as well (it says that in the article ). They had to defend against punches as well as throws, so the distance wasn't as close as it is in boxing.

It's funny because what your saying is exactly the reason they did keep the gaurd further away: To have more reaction time.

 

[Josh Penner]

Ive broken a knuckle once.. my biggest problem with punches is the stress on the elbow joint. I know a lot of light weights that can hit hard but end up breaking their fingers in the process. Good find. Thanks eh.

 

[skaleton]

I think you're misquoting Rutten. Doesn't he say that it doesn't matter if you turn your fist or not? Either way, I disagree. The extra power you get from the "cyclone" snap at the end of the punch is well worth it. Strengthen your grip and smooth out your form and you won't have any wrist alignment problems.

You can still get taht "cyclone snap" if you were to hold your hands like the Notre Dame Leprecaun mascot, with the knuckles turned outward, that would let you get the snap as you turned your knuckles verticle.

 

[YeahBee]

I was under the impression that the boxers of old used more kinda like a hammerfist for their main punch, but do not take my word fort it I am a boxing newb