Barbershop Workers Leave After California Supreme Court Ruling

[HockeyBjj]

Not saying this ruling is correct, but what about Uber drivers makes them independent contractors? If all the drivers quit, Uber immediately has nothing to sell. When I think of IC's, I think of the IT guy, or the accountant. You call 'em when you need 'em, and if they can't do it, business continues until you find another one.

Yeah, the manufacturing plant I was at used independent contractors (hired through a contracting company) all the time for our maintenance down days

Each major machine got 1 electrician, 1 mechanic assigned to it essentially and employed by the company. When production would shut down for 16 hours once a month, we'd bring in an army of 50+ millwrights and pipefitters and 20-49 electricians with a planned list of jobs for all of them.

We were a paper making company, not a skilled trades company, which made sense that all those guys for 1 day a month were indeed CR Meyer or Faith contractors

This ruling sounds like it should have been phased in slowly though, to give businesses more time to indentify who would become full or part time employees and how to structure that pay/benefits the most similar to what they were making so that life could go on

Side related: Shouldn't laws governing how workers are classified be the job of legislation not the judicial? Or was there a law passed, someone fought it through the courts, and this was the result?

No more UFC California shows tho

 

[xcvbn]

Catch 22 situation. I'm not drawing any conclusions just yet as it could have a positive impact given time.

Really wish staffing companies would become outlawed/more responsible for temp employees

 

[Lord Coke]

Yeah, the manufacturing plant I was at used independent contractors (hired through a contracting company) all the time for our maintenance down days

Each major machine got 1 electrician, 1 mechanic assigned to it essentially and employed by the company. When production would shut down for 16 hours once a month, we'd bring in an army of 50+ millwrights and pipefitters and 20-49 electricians with a planned list of jobs for all of them.

We were a paper making company, not a skilled trades company, which made sense that all those guys for 1 day a month were indeed CR Meyer or Faith contractors

This ruling sounds like it should have been phased in slowly though, to give businesses more time to indentify who would become full or part time employees and how to structure that pay/benefits the most similar to what they were making so that life could go on

Side related: Shouldn't laws governing how workers are classified be the job of legislation not the judicial? Or was there a law passed, someone fought it through the courts, and this was the result?

No more UFC California shows tho

I think this is the Court's interpretation of a current law passed by the legislature.

 

[jamel]

I hope you mother fuckers like getting your haircuts at Super Cut and SportsClips.

Gone are the days of the straight razor only
Enjoy them hot clippers, bitch.
fade.

 

[JamesRussler]

This ruling sounds like it should have been phased in slowly though, to give businesses more time to indentify who would become full or part time employees and how to structure that pay/benefits the most similar to what they were making so that life could go on

Side related: Shouldn't laws governing how workers are classified be the job of legislation not the judicial? Or was there a law passed, someone fought it through the courts, and this was the result?

Exactly. This is something the legislature could have done. California has statutes defining just about everything, I'm frankly surprised they apparently don't have one on this particular issue.

 

[MadSquabbles500]

In NYC, a lot of lawyers, accountants, doctors, share the same office even though they are seperate businesses.

Cannot barbers do this? They are each their own business, but occupy the same shop. The owner of the barbershop will just be like a landlord, and charge barbers rent based on their sales, or be a sublettor if the landlord allows it. Since this new ruling, I think the Landlords should allow it because this seems like their tenant will not get as much business now, and wont make rent.

 

[SleepyBoy]

So all landscapers will now be w2 employees with ss numbers and not ICs using a tax credit numbers?
So all landscapers will have to fill out an I-9 showing they either have a ss card And a us birth certificate or a us passport.. and those will be legally enforced?

How about agricultural workers? They all have to be on payroll too, correct? No ICs anymore.

I have a feeling this will be selectively enforced.

 

[EGarrett]

I originally thought this ruling was a good thing when it came down because Uber drivers will get some help most likely. I didn't even think about Barbers losing their jobs over this ruling. What do you guys think overall is this ruling good or bad for CA

https://sacramento.cbslocal.com/2018/09/07/sacramento-barbershop-california-supreme-court/

Unintended consequences is pretty much how government ruins everything.

 

[woodguyatl]

I originally thought this ruling was a good thing when it came down because Uber drivers will get some help most likely. I didn't even think about Barbers losing their jobs over this ruling. What do you guys think overall is this ruling good or bad for CA



https://sacramento.cbslocal.com/2018/09/07/sacramento-barbershop-california-supreme-court/

The way this often gets handles is that the shop owner rents the chair to the barber and creates a tenant relationship like an office share environment.

 

[woodguyatl]

So, I'm kind of lost.

Don't most barbers set their own hours and just rent a chair from the guy that owns the shop?

Some of the classier places like to exert more control over the processes and procedures and amenities than would be possible in that situation, but it also means they are likely failing the test to be independent contractors.

 

[woodguyatl]

Yeah, the manufacturing plant I was at used independent contractors (hired through a contracting company) all the time for our maintenance down days

Each major machine got 1 electrician, 1 mechanic assigned to it essentially and employed by the company. When production would shut down for 16 hours once a month, we'd bring in an army of 50+ millwrights and pipefitters and 20-49 electricians with a planned list of jobs for all of them.

We were a paper making company, not a skilled trades company, which made sense that all those guys for 1 day a month were indeed CR Meyer or Faith contractors

This ruling sounds like it should have been phased in slowly though, to give businesses more time to indentify who would become full or part time employees and how to structure that pay/benefits the most similar to what they were making so that life could go on

Side related: Shouldn't laws governing how workers are classified be the job of legislation not the judicial? Or was there a law passed, someone fought it through the courts, and this was the result?

No more UFC California shows tho

I didn’t think paper mills ever shut down.

 

[woodguyatl]

In NYC, a lot of lawyers, accountants, doctors, share the same office even though they are seperate businesses.

Cannot barbers do this? They are each their own business, but occupy the same shop. The owner of the barbershop will just be like a landlord, and charge barbers rent based on their sales, or be a sublettor if the landlord allows it. Since this new ruling, I think the Landlords should allow it because this seems like their tenant will not get as much business now, and wont make rent.

They can, but the the owner can not dictate how the barber does their job in any way. Smaller places can do it this way but many nicer shops of set prices and procedures with respect to how services, straight rasor shave for instance, ar done. An owner can not dictate to an IC how that would be done. Imagine if the workers at Starbucks were IC’s and could make cofffe any way they wanted.

 

[HockeyBjj]

I didn’t think paper mills ever shut down.

Once every 5 weeks to change the felt. Sometimes its an 8 hour felt and go, every other down day is longer to get needed maintenance work or upgrades in.

Pure and utter chaos to get as much work into as short a time window as possible then start the machine back up. Lot of long nights and 20+ hour days worked depending on what projects I had on a down

 

[leto1776]

I hope you mother fuckers like getting your haircuts at Super Cut and SportsClips.

Gone are the days of the straight razor only
Enjoy them hot clippers, bitch.
fade.

Meh. I go to my barber, and the owner does my shaves. Occasionally she'll have someone else working for her, to help carry the load. Not my business how she pays them. Whole idea of renting chairs just seems weird to me. Shouldn't the shop itself have the reputation?

 

[PolishHeadlock]

Not saying this ruling is correct, but what about Uber drivers makes them independent contractors? If all the drivers quit, Uber immediately has nothing to sell. When I think of IC's, I think of the IT guy, or the accountant. You call 'em when you need 'em, and if they can't do it, business continues until you find another one.

I thought that the mere fact that they could work whenever they want, wherever they want, and how much they want was enough to establish there was no employee/employer relationship.

You raise an interesting point that the business is reliant on the Contractors. I could also see an argument that Uber is renting their platform to the drivers like a barbershop rents a chair.

Looking at @Trotsky's post I find the idea of a legislating a 3rd designation as "Dependent Contractor" or something like that.

I guess this "gig economy" is kind of it's own thing and I'd rather not stifle that if possible.

 

[jamel]

Meh. I go to my barber, and the owner does my shaves. Occasionally she'll have someone else working for her, to help carry the load. Not my business how she pays them. Whole idea of renting chairs just seems weird to me. Shouldn't the shop itself have the reputation?

Because a great barber is a gotdamn local celebrity and shouldnt be getting an hourly wage or putting their tips in a pool.

Thats how you wind up getting them in-grown hairs cause it's just a job then not a trade.

 

[Rational Poster]

Ya but the new test is you have to fulfill all three prong to be a IC. Barber fail b and c

(A) that the worker is free from the control and direction of the hirer in connection with the performance of the work, both under the contract for the performance of such work and in fact;

(B) that the worker performs work that is outside the usual course of the hiring entity’s business; and

(C) that the worker is customarily engaged in an independently established trade, occupation, or business of the same nature as the work performed for the hiring entity.

edit sorry I see what you are saying. I think if you just rent the chair and are not taking money from the barber you might be okay @JamesRussler what do you think. I am not sure now.

It doesn't make much sense to me to being with.

Uber's drivers already provide a service that is outside the usual course of the hiring entity's business.

Uber merely connects customers to drivers, they don't actually offer driving as a service and don't even have their own vehicles. Their business is a line of communication and payment between drivers and customers, not the driving itself.

 

[ultramanhyata]

Barbers are going to have to start making house calls. Like massage therapists.

Maybe now I can end my cut with a handy.

 

[Law Talkin’ Guy]

I practice quite a bit of employment law up here in Canada. We have a different common law test for what makes an “independent contractor” versus an employee, and most parts of the test were established in tax cases in the 90s and early 2000s (because the government always wants to get their share and contractors typically pay less tax than employees).

I’m curious to see how pending Uber litigation could potentially change some of those tests here as seems to have happened in California.

My personal view on the matter is that I favour “freedom to contract” meaning if it says in a written contract that it’s an independent contractor arrangement then that’s what it is. If someone doesn’t like it then they shouldn’t enter the working relationship in the first place. Furthermore people will flip flop solely based on what’s convenient for them at the time. By that, I mean that someone will be perfectly happy being called an independent contractor for months or years so they have fewer deductions from their gross pay (social security, group benefits premiums, unemployment insurance etc.) and then lose their job due to whatever circumstances, and then sue the employer for all the things they previously specifically opted out of to save a few bucks. I don’t have any sympathy for those people, and believe that they should have to live with the consequences that flow from their decisions.

As for how I see the Uber litigation playing out here, under the existing jurisprudence I think that Uber drivers are likely independent contractors, but I’m not certain because I don’t know all of the mechanics of how the relationship works. However, the fact that Uber drivers use their own cars, set their own hours, and basically derive their income purely on a commission basis are all factors that heavily weigh in favour of being considered independent contractors under existing Canadian law. Guess we’ll see what happens.

 

[leto1776]

Because a great barber is a gotdamn local celebrity and shouldnt be getting an hourly wage or putting their tips in a pool.

Thats how you wind up getting them in-grown hairs cause it's just a job then not a trade.

If you say so. In my area most own and run their own shops.