Back control finishing issues

[PerfectBalance]

I have been training a while and have gotten a good grasp of most of the basics; however, I have huge issues with finishing from back control. I can't get the RNC for my life, so I resort to other methods of finishing. I usually give up the RNC after a brief hand fight because I find it hard to get a good grasp with the choking arm without it slipping up and becoming a face crank. Recently I have been doing a good job of flattening guys out, but I run out of squeezing power when I go for the choke. I have even resorted to just covering the mouth with my hand after I have flatten them out to avoid burning my arms out. Any little tips on getting the arm around the guys neck before he defends would be awesome. I've watched a lot of Marcelo's tapes on finishing from the back, but still having trouble with commiting my arm without getting bucked and lose postion. Thanks guys

 

[hughes fan]

Double post sorry (second one makes more sense)

 

[hughes fan]

If you really can't do it I would suggest not bothering to put the hooks in and working from N/S for a N/S choke(obviously lol) or back side control for an arm or darce choke because it's sometimes easier if the guy has his chin tucked well.
If you want to finish from the back I think that you could sink the hooks in and roll so you have their back while you are on yours which makes it hard for them to keep their chin tucked.

 

[Andrew Green]

, but still having trouble with commiting my arm without getting bucked and lose postion. Thanks guys

Are you trying to choke him while he is on his knees? If so stop that, break him down first. Either flatten him and get his knees up off the mat or pull him on top of you, committing both hands to the neck when the guy is on his knees will get you shaken off.

 

[lethalazn]

The direction my opponent's body faces generally determines what move I go for, if I don't like my options I have to change the direction my opponent's body is facing
Opponent is laying on overhook side: RNC, Arm Triangle (must go to mount and then sidemount to finish)
Opponent is on all fours/knees: ROLL opponent to overhook side (I do NOT recommend finishing RNC from there) or Armbar*
Opponent is laying on underhook side: Armbar*, Triangle
Opponent is bringing against you (facing up): Butterfly Hook to force the guy to roll onto choke side, reinsert hook, Armbar, Arm Triangle

*Replace with Bow & arrow choke if wearing Gi

 

[PerfectBalance]

Are you trying to choke him while he is on his knees? If so stop that, break him down first. Either flatten him and get his knees up off the mat or pull him on top of you, committing both hands to the neck when the guy is on his knees will get you shaken off.

No I flatten them out first before commiting my hands. 80% of my finishes from the back come from two moves. Either this YouTube - Ryan Hall - The Triangle [DVD 3] - Back Control To Triangle BJJ
or this if I have weak back control YouTube - Robert Drysdale Nth Dimension Jiu-Jitsu Back Attacks 1 both work well for me, but if I miss them I lose position and I don't like to work any harder then I have too.

 

[knoxpk]

Take what is there. Dont be in a rush to finish, get wrist control, get the legs in and flatten him. If he is sitting tight, keep fighting for hand control and he may try to regain guard when he does anticipate and get side control, if he doesnt you should be able to work your legs in.

 

[PerfectBalance]

Take what is there. Dont be in a rush to finish, get wrist control, get the legs in and flatten him. If he is sitting tight, keep fighting for hand control and he may try to regain guard when he does anticipate and get side control, if he doesnt you should be able to work your legs in.

Well I'm not really in a rush to finish, since my first goal is to maintain position. However, most individuals get tired of me being on there back for 5 mins without moving for a finish. I spend a good amount of time maintain mount and back mount as the guy moves, but I never feel comfortable enough to go for the arm triangle or armbar when they try to upa me. Perhaps I should take my troubles to the Strength and Conditioning forum, since my weak squeeze is making it unable for me to finish chokes without my arms gassing.

 

[knoxpk]

Well I'm not really in a rush to finish, since my first goal is to maintain position. However, most individuals get tired of me being on there back for 5 mins without moving for a finish. I spend a good amount of time maintain mount and back mount as the guy moves, but I never feel comfortable enough to go for the arm triangle or armbar when they try to upa me. Perhaps I should take my troubles to the Strength and Conditioning forum, since my weak squeeze is making it unable for me to finish chokes without my arms gassing.

Well, if all they are doing is defending then they hold some blame, but there are things you can do. They may be more along the lines of wrestling lick wirst control and picking the ankle to break them off their base etc...

YouTube - Wrestling Technique - New Ankle Pick Breakdown
You can do this with a near side wrist and far ankle too. When you flatten him straddle his body and as he tries to regain his base, slide your hooks in and flatten him again, then go after the choke. You can also try to trap his wrist and put it behind his back for a chciken wing if he lays there etc... plenty of options if you look for them.

 

[PerfectBalance]

Well, if all they are doing is defending then they hold some blame, but there are things you can do. They may be more along the lines of wrestling lick wirst control and picking the ankle to break them off their base etc...

YouTube - Wrestling Technique - New Ankle Pick Breakdown
You can do this with a near side wrist and far ankle too. When you flatten him straddle his body and as he tries to regain his base, slide your hooks in and flatten him again, then go after the choke. You can also try to trap his wrist and put it behind his back for a chciken wing if he lays there etc... plenty of options if you look for them.

url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y7ojjHEEafE]YouTube - Wrestling Technique - New Ankle Pick Breakdown[/url] This is exactly what I do to get hooks or I use the Leo Viera roll. Not to be redundent, but my issue is not getting my hooks or flattening them out. I have a problem finishing the choke when there flatten out. Having someones back and flatten out is the most dominant position in my opinion and I get there constantly, but once I commit my hands they start working there base back. I pull there arm back in with wrist control and hip into them to flatten them out again, but it becomes a awful cycle that eventually leads me to just giving up the back and letting them roll and taking sidemount. To finish my ranting I don't feel like I can progress my jiu jistu if I can't finish the most basic RNC move from the most dominate position.

 

[knoxpk]

url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y7ojjHEEafE]YouTube - Wrestling Technique - New Ankle Pick Breakdown[/url] This is exactly what I do to get hooks or I use the Leo Viera roll. Not to be redundent, but my issue is not getting my hooks or flattening them out. I have a problem finishing the choke when there flatten out. Having someones back and flatten out is the most dominant position in my opinion and I get there constantly, but once I commit my hands they start working there base back. I pull there arm back in with wrist control and hip into them to flatten them out again, but it becomes a awful cycle that eventually leads me to just giving up the back and letting them roll and taking sidemount. To finish my ranting I don't feel like I can progress my jiu jistu if I can't finish the most basic RNC move from the most dominate position.

oops, gotcha! Usually its the other way, getting in position to finish, not the other way around. Well unless we can observe I am not sure any of us can help you finish a sunk in choke.

 

[KJGould]

Try having one arm wrist control, and your other arm crossface when you flatten out. If you're having difficulty flattening them out with just one wrist controlled, adjust your hooks slightly so you can drive diagonally across the shoulder of the arm you have wrist control on. It'll be much harder for them to regain base if you're driving and hipping in diagonally rather than in-line with their spine.

 

[Shemhazai]

I try to trap an arm with a leg, or just go for a full-blown crucifix. Then the hand-fighting gets a lot easier.

 

[Noskill]

I agree about the crucifix. If you can get wrist control on the other arm, then all he has to defend is his chin. You can finish the choke with one hand from there (Marcelo does this all the time). Also, attacking both the armlock and the choke at the same time is key: it makes them commit mistakes.

A little tip I was taught and used to finish the RNC from the flattened out position is to post my right elbow on the mat next to my opponent's left ear, then drag this elbow to the right so that it tilts their head to the right. This makes space for your choking hand to enter under their chin. Then secure the choke.

 

[sproggdawg]

I have been training a while and have gotten a good grasp of most of the basics; however, I have huge issues with finishing from back control. I can't get the RNC for my life, so I resort to other methods of finishing. I usually give up the RNC after a brief hand fight because I find it hard to get a good grasp with the choking arm without it slipping up and becoming a face crank. Recently I have been doing a good job of flattening guys out, but I run out of squeezing power when I go for the choke. I have even resorted to just covering the mouth with my hand after I have flatten them out to avoid burning my arms out. Any little tips on getting the arm around the guys neck before he defends would be awesome. I've watched a lot of Marcelo's tapes on finishing from the back, but still having trouble with commiting my arm without getting bucked and lose postion. Thanks guys

Youve gotten plenty of advice on everything else, so I figured I would address your squeeze. If your arms are burning out then you are squeezing inefficiently. Using arm strength to squeeze isnt ideal for a number of reasons, and it becomes more apparent when youre facing a stronger opponent. Try squeezing this way-
YouTube - Rear Naked Choke