B.J. Penn is NOT the LW GOAT. Not even close.

[BJ@LW&WW]

i wasnt aware there are still people who think frankie won the first fight.

 

[trblesome1]

Well Edgar for one has done better at LW.

Edgars top LW wins

- Bj
- BJ
- Maynard
- Sherk


BJ's top LW wins

- Gomi
- Sherk
- ??

Edgar and BJ each have 3 defenses
Edgar has the better overall record at LW with the tougher strength of schedule.

Im as big a Frankie fan as anyone but he left the division because he lost twice to Benson, although debatable they were close enough that he wasn't a dominant champion

It's not just the names you beat there is something to be said for how you beat them. Nobody has had a Penn type run at LW so because of that Penn is the LW GOAT

I know he won't hold onto that status forever, probably not very long but regardless he is a pioneer

 

[Toxxus]

Part of what made BJ Penn seem like such an unstoppable force and insane talent:
1- First American to win gold at the BJJ world championships in Brazil.
2- Took the WW belt from the 2nd best WW of all time - Matt Hughes
3- Fought LHW unbeaten rising star Machida while giving up 40-50lbs and it was close.
4- Fought GSP to a split decision - think about how many people much less LWs have done that.
5- Fought #1 WW contender Fitch to a draw
6- Had a good, albeit not necessarily the best LW run. When he was on he was completely destroying people.
7- One of a whopping 2 people in UFC history to get gold in two weight classes. It's so easy that Edgar hasn't been able to do it. Neither has anyone else not named Couture.

 

[mastodon06]

At no point? You mean, when he out-struck Edgar and defended 13/14 takedown attempts in their first fight and was the aggressor, but somehow got robbed? Yeah, at no point then either.

I would not call the first fight a robbery, it was very close, and I believe Frankie made BJ look terrible. I don't recall the compustrike numbers for that fight, but BJ's aggression was ineffective, as Frankie landed the cleaner strikes in a fight were not a lot happened.

 

[MikeHammer**]

I couldn't agree more.....personally I would have Bendo, Gomi or Edgar higher then BJ. People think that BJ was this great champ at LW....what they don't realize is that in his first UFC run....he never won the title.

Bj is his first UFC run as 5-1-1.....and didn't win the belt while Pulver was 6-0-1 in the UFC during that time and beat BJ in a title defence...and actually defended the belt twice.

BJ won the title in his second run.....he beat guys like PUlver, Stevenson, Sherk and Florian....but I was more impressed with what Edgar and Bendo did during that time.

BJ is great amongst the goat list when you combine his career at LW and WW but not Goat at LW

and that is exactly it.

Bj's fights and accomplishments outside LW (and by that we mean the sole Matt Hughes first win as nothing else he did outside LW means much other than losses to great fighters) are why he ranks so high with so many.

His LW career is only good. He took the UFC LW belt at the weakest time in the LW division history. In his first run at LW the division was much tougher and he could not grab that belt. The division was disbanded, and then when the UFC brought it back and it was weak and terrible thin (pre WEC) Bj grabbed that belt. Once the comp got better BJ was unable to compete.

I think had BJ not chased glory above LW and instead went on a tear thru the Pride, and K-1 and Dream's LW divisions and if he was able to establish himself at the top of the LW heap at that time (which I think he would have had a chance to do) and held that dominance until the UFC reconstituted their LW division and BJ ended his LW run with that run over Sherk, Florian, Sanchez, etc, then he would unquestionable not only be the LW GOAT but have a tenure that would put him up in the discussions with Anderson and GSP and Fedor as over all GOAT.

In many ways I think his first win over Hughes completely hurt his legacy. His biggest win ended his ability to solidify himself as LW GOAT, and the number of big losses he piled up above LW chasing that type of glory again hurt him.

 

[rpn453]

yes, then you are being absurd if you think a guys accomplishments in another division impact his position in a completely different position.

Rumble is doing great at LHW. If he somehow manages an awesome LHW career should that bump into top rankings at WW? Do you see how ridiculous that is?

Yes, it is ridiculous. It's hard to believe you even think it's comparable.

 

[rpn453]

your post is one of the dumbest things ever said.

it is like saying Rumble's wins over Arlovski, and several LHW's should get him ranked him as a top WW because those wins are bigger than WW wins.

Ridiculous. Dumb and ridiculous.

If it were any dumber, it could have been one of yours.

 

[Substance Abuse]

I would not call the first fight a robbery, it was very close, and I believe Frankie made BJ look terrible. I don't recall the compustrike numbers for that fight, but BJ's aggression was ineffective, as Frankie landed the cleaner strikes in a fight were not a lot happened.

It was close, yet Frankie made BJ look terrible? Oxymoron much?

Never-the-less, Penn landed more strikes, controlled the center of the octagon, had effective aggression because he out-struck Edgar, stuffed all his takedown attempts sans one, which again is octagon control and in turn he made Edgar's aggression in those attempts ineffective.

Also, damage is not a part of scoring criteria and Penn came into that fight with black eyes if I remember correctly, so if you want, you can give Edgar credit for those. Penn was outright robbed in that fight. He won the first three rounds easy -- coming forward, landing more strikes, defending all the takedowns.

I guess we can agree to disagree. And I'm a huge Edgar fan.

 

[MikeHammer**]

Im as big a Frankie fan as anyone but he left the division because he lost twice to Benson, although debatable they were close enough that he wasn't a dominant champion

It's not just the names you beat there is something to be said for how you beat them. Nobody has had a Penn type run at LW so because of that Penn is the LW GOAT

I know he won't hold onto that status forever, probably not very long but regardless he is a pioneer

your post makes me laugh.

BJ left the division because he lost to Edgar twice.

And Edgar has a BJ type run at LW. In fact his run is over better comp with BJ being his top two names. So you might want to rethink that.

 

[MikeHammer**]

I don't necessarily agree with him. But I think the better comparison would be saying 'Rumble' beating Cain.

Rumble beating Cane should get Rumble ranked amongst the top WW all time?

What????

WTF does that have to do with what Rumble was able to do, or not, in WW run?

 

[Monkey Pride]

There are 5 guys who have resumes that can compete for LW GOAT: Penn, Gomi, Bendo, Aoki, Melendez. Bendo is the only guy you could argue has a better LW resume than BJ Penn. All of those others guys including Pettis either fall short or simply havent done enough.

Shit how about Pettis as last WEC Champ with MMAs most famous highlight. Then making short sweet work of two guys on your list for the UFC title. Bendo and Melendez.

Penn for GOAT. Almost beat GSP for fucks sake.

-Penn-
Hughes, Gomi, Sherk, Florian, Thomas, (Nightmare)Sanchez, Serra, Pulver, Uno, with a close loss to GSP and a robbery vs Edgar. Plus the balls to fight a much bigger future LHW champ and MW contender (didn't do bad at all)

Pettis beats RDA and Khabib then he is possibly LW GOAT. That said Khabib will reign for years.

Aoki-No Real Belts, lost to Melendez, lots of cans

Gomi-Lost to Penn, not best comp, lots of cans

Melendez-Lost 2/2 UFC title fights
Not best comp while SF champ

Bendo-Boring couldn't even finish Diaz. Lost to Pettis twice sandwiching title run.

All those guys where great. But we talking being GOAT Vs Penn.

 

[Substance Abuse]

Rumble beating Cane should get Rumble ranked amongst the top WW all time?

What????

WTF does that have to do with what Rumble was able to do, or not, in WW run?

I said I agreed with you, but you mentioned 'Rumble' and Arlovski. Arlovski isn't Hughes. Cain is Hughes. That's all. Reading comp, buddy. Relax man.

 

[Toxxus]

It was close, yet Frankie made BJ look terrible? Oxymoron much?

Never-the-less, Penn landed more strikes, controlled the center of the octagon, had effective aggression because he out-struck Edgar, stuffed all his takedown attempts sans one, which again is octagon control and in turn he made Edgar's aggression in those attempts ineffective.

Also, damage is not a part of scoring criteria and Penn came into that fight with black eyes if I remember correctly, so if you want, you can give Edgar credit for those. Penn was outright robbed in that fight. He won the first three rounds easy -- coming forward, landing more strikes, defending all the takedowns.

I guess we can agree to disagree. And I'm a huge Edgar fan.

I have to agree with the assessment on Edgar vs. Penn 1. Everyone at my place saw Penn winning that pretty comfortably either 48-47 or 49-46. We were Wile Coyote slack-jawed incredulous when they read off numbers like 50-45 for Edgar.

Most media outlets, fighters and fightmetric scored it for Penn 48-47.

It remains, to me, one of the biggest robberies of UFC history. Not as bad as Bisping vs. Hamill, but bad.

 

[Substance Abuse]

Shit how about Pettis as last WEC Champ with MMAs most famous highlight. Then making short sweet work of two guys on your list for the UFC title. Bendo and Melendez.

Penn for GOAT. Almost beat GSP for fucks sake.

Pettis resume < name wise than almost anyone. Cept Penn.

-Penn-
Hughes, Gomi, Sherk, Florian, Thomas, (Nightmare)Sanchez, Serra, Pulver, Uno, with a close loss to GSP and a robbery vs Edgar. Plus the balls to fight a much bigger future LHW champ and MW contender (didn't do bad at all either).
VS
-Pettis-
BendoX2. Melendez, Cerrone, Lauzon, Roller, MMAs greatest highlight ever.

Don't see an argument

He beats RDA and Khabib then he is possibly LW GOAT. That said Khabib will reign for years.

I'm sure most of the guys in here don't think Din Thomas was a good win within the context of that time... I mean, to some of them, who the fuck is that? lol

 

[TheComebackKid]

For reference:

BJ Penn

-UFC LightWeight Champion, 3 Title Defenses

-8 Top 10 Wins

-Defeated 7 Champions

Notable Wins:

-Takanori Gomi, Pride LW Champion
-Sean Sherk, UFC LW Champion
-Diego Sanchez, TUF Champion
-Matt Serra, UFC WW Champion
-Caol Uno, Shooto WW Champion
-Joe Stevenson, TUF Champion
-Jens Pulver, UFC LW Champion
-Din Thomas, Top 10
-Kenny Florian, Top 10


Benson Henderson

-UFC LightWeight Champion, 3 Title Defenses
-WEC LightWeight Champion
-WEC Interim LightWeight Champion

-8 Top 10 Wins

-Defeated 6 Champions

Notable Wins:

-Frankie Edgar 2x, UFC LW Champion
-Gilbert Melendez, StrikeForce LW Champion
-Josh Thomson, StrikeForce LW Champion
-Nate Diaz, TUF Champion
-Clay Guida, StrikeForce LW Champion
-Jamie Varner, WEC LW Champion
-Donald Cerrone 2x, Top 10
-Jim Miller, Top 10


Takanori Gomi

-Pride LightWeight Champion, 1 Title Defense
-Pride LightWeight Grand Prix Champion
-Shooto LightWeight Champion, 1 Title Defense

-9 Top 10 Wins

-Defeated 9 Champions

Notable Wins:

-Hayato Sakurai, Shooto WW Champion
-Jens Pulver, UFC LW Champion
-Dokonjonosuke Mishima, Deep LW Champion
-Tatsuya Kawajiri, Shooto LW Champion
-Chris Brennan, KOTC MW Champion
-David Baron, Shooto MW Euro Champion
-Duane Ludwig, TKO LW Champion
-Mac Danzig, KOTC LW Champion
-Rumina Sato, Top 10
-Luiz Azeredo 2x, Top 10
-Ryan Bow, Top 10
-Marcus Aurelio, Top 10
-Misuhiro Ishida, Shooto PR WW Champion


Frankie Edgar

-UFC LightWeight Champion, 2 Title Defenses

-6 Top 10 Wins

-Defeated 3 Champions

Notable Wins:

-BJ Penn 2x, UFC LightWeight Champion
-Sean Sherk, UFC LightWeight Champion
-Hermes Franca, WEC LW Champion
-Gray Maynard, Top 10
-Tyson Griffin, Top 10
-Jim Miller, Top 10


Gilbert Melendez

-2x StrikeForce LightWeight Champion, 5 Title Defenses
-StrikeForce Interim LightWeight Champion, 2 Title Defenses

-9 Top 10 Wins

-Defeated 5 Champions

Notable Wins:

-Shinya Aoki, Dream LW Champion
-Josh Thomson 2x, StrikeForce LW Champion
-Tatsuya Kawajiri, Shooto LW Champion
-Clay Guida, StrikeForce LW Champion
-Diego Sanchez, TUF Champion
-Stephen Palling, Top 10
-Rumina Sato, Top 10
-Mitsuhiro Ishida, Shooto PR Shooto Champion
-Jorge Masvidel 2x, Top 10


Shinya Aoki

-Dream LightWeight Champion, 2 Title Defenses
-ONE LightWeight Champion, 1 Title Defense

-9 Top 10 Wins

-Defeated 10 Champions

Notable Wins:

-Eddie Alvarez, Bellator LW Champion
-Vitor Ribeiro, Shooto LW Champion
-Joachim Hansen, Dream LW Champion
-Mizuto Hirota, Sengoku LW Champion
-Tatsuya Kawajiri, Shooto LW Champion
-Rob McCollough, WEC LW Champion
-Caol Uno, Hero's LW Champion
-Gesias Cavalcante, K1 Hero's Champion
-Satoru Kitaoka, Sengoku LW Champion
-Kotetsu Boku, ONE FC LW Champion


Anthony Pettis

-UFC LightWeight Champion, 1 Title Defense
-WEC LightWeight Champion

-5 Top 10 Wins

-Defeated 2 Champions

Notable Wins:

-Benson Henderson 2x, UFC LW Champion
-Gilbert Melendez, StrikeForce Champion
-Donald Cerrone, Top 10
-Joe Lauzon, Top 10
-Jeremy Stephens, Top 10

 

[MikeHammer**]

Yes, it is ridiculous. It's hard to believe you even think it's comparable.

what makes it not comparable? Explain.

Ok lets ramp it up. Say Rumble was able to beat Jones at LHW or Cain at HW as someone else suggested. WTF does that have to do with his ability to win or not at WW?

Even if you say Rumble taking both the LHW belt from Jones and then moving up and taking Cain's belt at HW puts him as overall GOAT, it would not and should not improve his standing as a WW fighter and it should not get him ranked amongst the WW GOATs. To think otherwise is asinine and dumb. Real dumb.

 

[Substance Abuse]

I have to agree with the assessment on Edgar vs. Penn 1. Everyone at my place saw Penn winning that pretty comfortably either 48-47 or 49-46. We were Wile Coyote slack-jawed incredulous when they read off numbers like 50-45 for Edgar.

Most media outlets, fighters and fightmetric scored it for Penn 48-47.

It remains, to me, one of the biggest robberies of UFC history. Not as bad as Bisping vs. Hamill, but bad.

I watched that in a house with about fifteen people, and every single one of us were shocked by that decision. It was mind blowing at the time. It's like the two losses to Edgar afterward changed history and allows for the revisionism to be common place and be okay.

I had it 49-46.

Almost every media outlet had Penn winning at the very least three rounds.

I don't think it's out of the realm of rational thought to think that Penn won that fight outright. It's as if the losses to Edgar after their initial bout put a slant on that first fight and now it's okay to add 'close' to it.

 

[MikeHammer**]

I said I agreed with you, but you mentioned 'Rumble' and Arlovski. Arlovski isn't Hughes. Cain is Hughes. That's all. Reading comp, buddy. Relax man.

Fair enough.

I am still in retard overload dealing with rpn453's posts.

And again if Rumble could take both Jones and Cain's belts successively that should have nothing to do with his ranking as a WW fighter. Overall GOAT yes, but as far as WW GOAT or standings it should equal zero.

 

[Substance Abuse]

Fair enough.

I am still in retard overload dealing with rpn453's posts.

And again if Rumble could take both Jones and Cain's belts successively that should have nothing to do with his ranking as a WW fighter. Overall GOAT yes, but as far as WW GOAT or standings it should equal zero.

No argument there. It's enhancement on overall legacy, not necessarily effecting the stature within the smaller division. Penn will forever be a legend no matter what he does for all that ape-shit division winning and jumping in my mind. No one can ever take that away.

 

[Adamant]

BJ only lost when he wasn't motivated.

Pretty shit excuse for a professional fighter. Edgar beat his ass when he was motivated.