Ayaan Hirsi Ali on how we are fighting islam

AlucardNatasrd said:
I find it highly suspect we can instill Western values into people who are not Western people.

All cultures derive from the nature of a people. It seems to me entirely unjustified to think we can be sure that people entirely distinct from us can adapt to our way of life, or more crucially, keep it growing.

Let each people retain their unique identities in their own lands.
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Yeah that's simply not true. The English culture is made up of Celtic, Briton, Roman, Saxon, Viking, and Norman culture all blended together. If what you say is true then the English wouldn't have come into existence and the US especially would have failed a long time ago.
 
just read that that guy was flogged in saudi arabia, so the online protest didn't work this time. mind you he is sentenced to 1000 lashes, and they are broken into a particular number of lashes he has to take.[i think it's each weekend or something like that?]
if that is true his back wouldn't have time to heal before the next flogging, it would be terrifying.

i'd like to know what are our governments doing regarding home-grown extremists. there doesn't seem to be anything obvious that is happening except for more security here and there.
like i've said before, i've always expected graphic ads on tv and in print, which are addressed to likely extremists in the community.
we have hard hitting tv ads whenever there is a 'don't drink and drive' campaign going on, so ads on extremism doesn't seem out of order imo.

i did here once that muslim leaders will be talking to young muslim men about not going overseas to fight, but heard nothing about it since then.
 
Zankou said:
One way is to point out that the countries which have suffered least from Western invasion, and which are most Islamist, are the biggest shitholes of them all, and have gotten worse and worse the more they have turned away from Western values.

Pakistan being Exhibit A on the destruction of a once-promising country at the hands of Islamism.

Turkey currently in the process of converting itself into a shithole.

Also, all those actions you complain of were in large part fomented and financed by the most Islamic regimes of all, particularly Saudi Arabia. Are people supposed to forget that the worst war of the last 30 years was a Sunni Arab assault on Shiite Iran? Are people supposed to forget that it was the Gulf Arabs who were baying for Saddam's destruction when he threatened their safety, and who pushed for and achieved his ouster? The idea that this was all just Westerners prancing about amongst ignorant brown folk is incredibly counterfactual -- if anybody takes a clear-eyed look at how the Islamist regimes have behaved, it has been reprehensible.
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but part of the reason pakistan is a shit hole is because of the militants who really came to be a much bigger problem when the russians invaded afghanistan. we also prop up the government of pakistan. so again, how do we have do we have credibility? we have propped p terrible regimes, we have hijacked good governments in places like iran, you name it. we have completely failed in the middle east out of greed and they know it. how can the west walk in there and pretend to be credible?

they don't trust us, and they shouldn't trust us. i agree westernization would be key, but how can we do it when all we do is f the region over?
 
AlucardNatasrd said:
The Left managed to turn George Zimmerman into a white man to call him racist. Sooo...
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to be fair, zim zam is half white, and he could still be a racist no matter what race he is, though i don't consider him to be one. further, i don't think people turned him into a racist so much as pointed out how many of his supporters were racist. which is fair and true. certain white people turned that idiot into a hero for killing an unarmed black teen. my own father was blatantly racist when it came to that case.

and there is no doubt that there is some serious bigotry towards muslims, no need to deny it, i see here in the war room all the time, and it's absolutely tolerated, ask logical insanity what i'm talking about. but there is also some rational anger towards muslims because we are seeing so many problems in the middle east and elsewhere. but i think we should be adult enough to look at the hand we have played in that too. i don't think it's racist to point this stuff out, i just think it's immature to not view the entire issue.
 
AlucardNatasrd said:
I find it highly suspect we can instill Western values into people who are not Western people.

All cultures derive from the nature of a people. It seems to me entirely unjustified to think we can be sure that people entirely distinct from us can adapt to our way of life, or more crucially, keep it growing.

Let each people retain their unique identities in their own lands.
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This is where I disagree with you, that non Westerners are innately incapable of adopting Western values (secularism, free speech, democrasy).

There are Whites who like fascism and there are non Whites who support democrasy and secularism.

The problem is ideologies like Islam that are inherently incompatible with a secular progressive democratic way of life.
 
Hollywood Nicky said:
but part of the reason pakistan is a shit hole is because of the militants who really came to be a much bigger problem when the russians invaded afghanistan. we also prop up the government of pakistan. so again, how do we have do we have credibility? we have propped p terrible regimes, we have hijacked good governments in places like iran, you name it. we have completely failed in the middle east out of greed and they know it. how can the west walk in there and pretend to be credible?

they don't trust us, and they shouldn't trust us. i agree westernization would be key, but how can we do it when all we do is f the region over?
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'Propped up' is used too loosely ... Either we are propping up regimes or tearing them down, as rhetoric, but the reality is that the largest economy and military power in the world will inevitably be accused of one or the other regardless of what it does. There isn't a neutral position. If you refused to trade with them, for example, and cut off ties, you'd be accused of brutal sanctions and meddling.

We are technically allies with Saudi arabia and Pakistan, but in no meaningful sense are we 'propping them up,' as if they would go away or be more pleasant if we turned against them or, in some unknown way, had no dealings with them at all.
 
Islam is a pretty broad term that covers quite a few very different beliefs. Like Alawites for instance are wildly different than other branches of Islam but they are still considered Muslims.
 
carlos cadona said:
Islam is a pretty broad term that covers quite a few very different beliefs. Like Alawites for instance are wildly different than other branches of Islam but they are still considered Muslims.
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Don't tell the Sunnis that.
 
Zankou said:
'Propped up' is used too loosely ... Either we are propping up regimes or tearing them down, as rhetoric, but the reality is that the largest economy and military power in the world will inevitably be accused of one or the other regardless of what it does. There isn't a neutral position. If you refused to trade with them, for example, and cut off ties, you'd be accused of brutal sanctions and meddling.

We are technically allies with Saudi arabia and Pakistan, but in no meaningful sense are we 'propping them up,' as if they would go away or be more pleasant if we turned against them or, in some unknown way, had no dealings with them at all.
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Whats also always struck me about this 'argument' is how come if it's so easy to just 'prop up' a dictator or a regime, how come the muslim states don't do the same to their enemies? How come they couldn't gather some of that petrodollar and install dictator in Israel? May it be because their 'system' sucks and is, in fact, weaker and unstabler?
 
carlos cadona said:
Sunnis often times consider themselves to be the only "true" Muslims. Actually that can be said for quite a few branches of Islam.
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But aggressive takfirism, the ideology that is fucking up the ME, is surely a sunni thing.
 
carlos cadona said:
Islam is a pretty broad term that covers quite a few very different beliefs. Like Alawites for instance are wildly different than other branches of Islam but they are still considered Muslims.
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When I criticize Islam, I am referring specifically to Sunni Islam, which is what the vast majority of Muslims are and Sunnis Islam is orthodox Islam. Alawites,other Shia and Sufis aren't the issue.

Of Sunnis it is the Wahabi/Salafi/Takifiri/Deobandi/Talib bastards that are the biggest culprits.
 
The only moderate Moslems are ones who play fast and loose with the religion. They are basically secular.
 
MicroBrew said:
When I criticize Islam, I am referring specifically to Sunni Islam, which is what the vast majority of Muslims are and Sunnis Islam is orthodox Islam. Alawites,other Shia and Sufis aren't the issue.

Of Sunnis it is the Wahabi/Salafi/Takifiri/Deobandi/Talib bastards that are the biggest culprits.
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Thanks for the clarification.
 
No accusations of Ayaan being racist yet. Interesting...
 
I wonder if islam is suitable to be secular,
there seem to be a disproportial part of people
who get aggressive and suicidal from it.

Why are no Jehova witnesses or Mormons blowing themselves up.
There is something dangerous in the philiosphy of islam.
They think they are all in battle for a conquest
over the infidels

I also believe many muslims think
'That's what happens to people who draw mohammed'
 
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